571 Logan Street, Denver, Colorado 80203 | 303–292–1212 | www.law week online.com
Vol. 09 | No. 44 | $6 | october 31, 2011
Their Turn To Talk
Law Week Colorado complements its quarterly Managing Partner Roundtable by inviting law
firm associates to the table. Happily, all have jobs, and all seem content in them. But they
have lessons to share about their experiences in finding jobs, their career aspirations and their
legal educations.
Pictured standing from left are Jamie Rutten, Donelson Ciancio & Goodwin; Matt Ellsworth, Sheridan Ross; and Jonathan Thompson, Faegre & Benson; seated left is Heather Joyce, Jackson Kelly;
and Kimberly Frederick, Davis Graham & Stubbs. | LAW WEEK PHOTOS GABRIEL CHRISTUS
law week colorado
october 31, 2011
associate roundtable
With all of the ups and downs in the economy, it’s been difficult for many new attorneys to find gainful employment. All of the associates that joined Law Week
for its Associate Roundtable knew people who had struggled or were still struggling to find a job, but each of them was lucky. Each of them was enthusiastic about the
practice of law, their firms and their experience thus far, but they also shared some tips for what they think should change. The participants were Matt Ellsworth, a second year associate with Sheridan Ross; Kimberly Frederick, a seventh year associate with Davis Graham & Stubbs; Heather Joyce, a second year associate with Jackson Kelly; Jamie Rutten, a third year associate with Donelson Ciancio & Goodwin; and Jonathan Thompson, a third year associate with Faegre & Benson.
Teresa Coogle, a registered professional court reporter for Hunter + Geist, recorded the session, which was held at the Warwick Denver Hotel at 1776 Grant St.
Meg Satrom, managing editor of Law Week Colorado moderated the session.
LAW WEEK: Thank you everyone for
coming and thank you to the Warwick
Hotel for hosting and to Hunter + Geist
for transcribing. We’ll start with introduc‑
tions so everyone can say where they went
to law school, where you work, what year
associate you are, what your practice is, and
a little bit about yourself.
JOYCE: My name is Heather Joyce. I am
a second‑year associate at Jackson Kelly. I
focus, recently, in the government affairs
practice group. I still do some commercial
litigation. And I’ve started to do some wa‑
ter law. I’m from Denver, Colo., originally.
ELLSWORTH: Matt Ellsworth. I work
at Sheridan Ross, and I don’t know if
I classify myself as a first year or sec‑
ond year—I’ve been at Sheridan Ross
for six‑and‑a‑half years. I worked there
as a patent agent before graduating law
school. It’s a change in title, but I’ve sat in
the same office and have done, primar‑
ily, the same stuff for six‑and‑a‑half years,
which is mostly patent transactional work.
I have twins and a toddler. And work and
kids and family keep me busy.
THOMPSON: I’m Jonathan Thompson.
I’m at Faegre & Benson. I focus two‑thirds
of my practice in business litigation and a
third in the natural resource area, includ‑
ing doing title work for oil and gas mat‑
ters. I’m finishing my second, going into
my third year next month, after finishing
a successful stint in business. I have three
boys who are now 10, 9, and 7. And I love
getting out and hiking and doing outdoor
things with them.
FREDERICK: My name is Kim Frederick.
I am a seventh‑year associate at Davis Gra‑
ham & Stubbs. I’m in our trial group. I’ve
worked on litigation in securities, product
liability, construction, and, most recently,
environmental litigation. I went to George
Washington University for law school in
D.C. and started my career at a large firm
in New York City. I moved out here about
a year and a half ago and started at Davis,
Graham & Stubbs.
RUTTEN: My name is Jamie Rutten. I am
a third‑year associate at Donelson Cian‑
cio & Goodwin, and I practice, primarily,
family law. I started off doing criminal law
and moved into family law, and I’ve been
doing family law for about two‑and‑a‑half
years now. I went to the University of North
Dakota. I’m from Colorado. I did my un‑
dergrad at Colorado State University. I’ve
lived in Colorado pretty much my whole
life. I’m glad to be back. I have a husband
and three dogs.
LAW WEEK: So the first question is about
how you found your jobs. A lot of gradu‑
ates are struggling to find the traditional
path of getting hired straight out of law
school. It’s not happening as frequently. So,
Jamie, how did you find Donelson Ciancio?
jonathan thompson
RUTTEN: I clerked in North Dakota be‑
tween my first and second year. Between
my second and third year, I knew I needed
to get back here so that I could get my foot
in the door somewhere, get some connec‑
tions in Colorado. So I looked at a lot of
different places. I knew I wanted to live
in the Adams County area. So, I started
doing some research. And I found Gene
Ciancio and Cindy Ciancio. I called them
up and said, ‘I need a summer clerk job.
Do you have anything available?’ They had
me come in and interview over Christ‑
mas break. We hit it off. It was absolutely
perfect. I came back after taking the bar, I
worked for them before I found my results
out and started working for them after I got
done. It was perfect.
LAW WEEK: Kim, I think your experience
is a little bit different. You moved here after
working a few years on the East coast. What
has your experience been as an out-of-state
associate moving to Denver?
FREDERICK: I started my career in New
York. I interviewed with a firm during the
summer of my first year. And then spent
my second‑year summer in their intern
program. Then I worked there for approxi‑
mately five and a half years. I very much
enjoyed it.
During that time, my family moved out
to Parker, Colo. So, I started looking in the
Denver market. It was a perfect fit to move
to a city where I could continue a vibrant
practice of law, but also be near my family,
which is something that I hadn’t had the
opportunity to do before.
I had heard that it was difficult
to get into the Denver market some‑
times if you’re not from the area or you
don’t have a connection to the area.
Luckily, one of the partners I worked
with in New York had a friend at Davis
Graham. They weren’t hiring at that point,
so we just talked.
Then when Davis Graham did have a
position come open, I submitted my ma‑
terials directly to the firm and went and
interviewed.
After meeting the people at the firm, I
realized that this was a great fit; that they
are not only people that do great law, but
they are great people.
A big thing that I’ve noticed is that firms
seem to be looking for more senior attor‑
neys and younger attorneys may be having
a more difficult time because firms benefit
from those who are previously trained.
LAW WEEK: Jonathan, you had a tradi‑
tional experience as far as doing on‑cam‑
pus interviews and finding your position
through them. Will you talk about how
you knew it was the right fit and what you
thought about other avenues?
THOMPSON: I come from a very suc‑
cessful business background. In fact, in the
company that I left, I was responsible for
about $120 million in annual revenue. I
had a very thriving career but found myself
interested in legal issues that continued to
arise. So I decided to move to Denver and
go to law school, because I loved the area.
Having been in the business world,
I’ve been around a lot of people, including
people that have intriguing, yet challenging
careers. And I found that useful as I was do‑
ing on-campus interviewing. I found some
people that were very interesting and dy‑
namic, and I focused my efforts with firms
that had those types of people, knowing
that’s ultimately the sort of environment
that I wanted to be in.
And that’s how I found Faegre & Ben‑
son, and it’s been a great fit.
ELLSWORTH: Patent law was something
that interested me enough that I was
prompted to take the patent bar on my own
accord. I took it, passed it and then found it
very hard to find someone who would give
a job to a newly minted patent agent that
has no training.
I was doing my graduate degree at the
School of Mines at the time, and I thought
there had to be some alumni in town. I just
looked up in the alumni bulletin to see what
cross-section of alumni was also practicing
law here in town. A handful of firms have
maybe 10 to 15 School of Mines alumni
practicing various aspects of law, but there
are, maybe, eight or nine other firms that
do patent law. So I found them. I found the
partners, the people to get in contact with,
and I sent them a letter. Then I called them
a week later. Everyone politely said, ‘No,
thank you.’
So I applied for and got a job at the pat‑
ent and trademark office [in Washington
D.C.]. I applied, went out and interviewed,
signed all of the paperwork, picked out an
apartment, and we were ready to move.
Then I got a call from Sheridan Ross
where there are a couple of School of Mines
law week colorado
october 31, 2011
associate roundtable
alumni. And they said, ‘Hey, we were fi‑
nally able to look at this. Would you mind
coming in?’
And the rest is history.
JOYCE: Like Jonathan, I arrived at Jackson
Kelly as a summer associate. I wasn’t plan‑
ning on doing on‑campus interviewing but
when spring came around, I thought, ‘It’s
time to look for a job.’ I was still not sure
what I wanted to do, but any experience
is good experience. I looked up a couple
of the firms doing on‑campus interviews,
and I researched Jackson Kelly. It seemed
like the office in Denver had really vibrant
women. I wanted to interview with them,
and I wanted to work with them. I came in
as a summer associate, and I’ve been there
ever since.
LAW WEEK: The next question is about
how you would assess your law school edu‑
cation. People thinking about going to law
school have asked me whether I would rec‑
ommend it not. What would you say or what
have you told people asking that question?
THOMPSON: I would say ‘Go to law
school if it’s what you really want to do.’
If you’re trying to figure out your life and
don’t know what you want to do, don’t
bother, because it’s a very challenging envi‑
ronment. It’s a very demanding profession,
so it’s not a fallback position.
My law school experience was very
challenging and great. I initially thought
that I might be a transactional attorney and
was headed that direction at my firm when
I was a summer associate. And then when
the downfall in the economy happened, I
jamie rutten
saw an opportunity to change what I do. I
was able to transform my course work into a
very hands‑on, practical sort of experience
where I got to learn from a sitting Colorado
Supreme Court justice, a state district court
judge, and a former prestigious New York
litigator. It was an excellent experience for
me to learn from the best mentors.
RUTTEN: I had a lot of preconceived no‑
tions about going to the University of
North Dakota. I thought, ‘I’m going to be
with a bunch of very interesting folks that
I’ve never been around before, but I’m
never going to find a job.’
I have to say though, that I thought law
school was one of the most phenomenal
experiences of my life, really. It was a small
school. I felt like I got an absolutely fan‑
tastic legal education. I came out of there
prepared to do my first year of clerkship.
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law week colorado
october 31, 2011
associate roundtable
I knew how to do brief writing. I knew
how to do everything a young lawyer
should know how to do. So I couldn’t have
been more excited about going to North
Dakota.
It takes a certain kind of person to go
to law school. It’s difficult. It’s a lot of work.
And if you don’t know for sure that that’s
what you want to be doing, and you’re just
going, because you don’t want to go to busi‑
ness school, or you don’t want to go get a
Ph.D., then you might want to rethink it.
But it is one of the most rewarding things
you can do if you’re looking for a job where
you’re going to be helping people.
JOYCE: My first month of law school was
horrifying, as it was for most. So were the
weeks after graduation studying for the bar.
I don’t think any attorney ever forgets that.
I don’t have a bad experience, though, from
law school. I thought it was very positive.
It was reaffirming to me every time that I
struggled and overcame a struggle and suc‑
ceeded. I really appreciate that it taught me
a new way to think about the world.
I didn’t take practical classes while
I was at DU. While I would have taken
more of them, I focused on research and
writing classes. I focused on topical class‑
es that just interested me, like oil and gas
law and natural resource law. That, in
and of itself, makes it a very rewarding
experience for someone who wants to go
learn about the world.
I would recommend law school with
qualifications. The main qualification being
there’s no substitute for real world experi‑
ence. What a legal education has taught me
is that the law is everywhere. So, if you have
more of a perspective on the world, you’ll
be able to get more out of a legal education.
The other qualification would be consider
the price, because it is very expensive. And
it’s something that will stick with most of us
for a long time.
LAW WEEK: Kim, what was it like going
to a law school on the East Coast? And
have you noticed any difference in cul‑
tures coming West?
FREDERICK: One nice thing about George
matt ellsworth
kimberly frederick
Washington University is that it had an
incredibly diverse student body. We were
divided into about four sections of about
100 students each.
I don’t think it was a competitive en‑
vironment for the most part. I think you
sometimes people who are not the most
cooperative.
I was very lucky that I worked at the
New York office of King & Spalding.
Going to a smaller office was fantastic.
There was a fantastic environment where
I would say ‘Go to law school if it’s what you really want to do.’ If
you’re trying to figure out your life and don’t know what you want to
do, don’t bother, because it’s a very challenging environment.”
— Jonathan Thompson
choose the people you surround yourself
with. You choose how you study.
I met some of my best friends who I
will be friends with forever. You learn how
to navigate people and work with people,
even people very different from you, or
the associates helped each other. Even
though you’re working hard, if I ended
up having to work the weekend, and I had
family coming in, I had other associates
volunteer to do it so I could see my family.
I stayed at that firm so long because of the
tight‑knit relationships.
Those were the type of relationships
I was looking for when I came to Davis
Graham.
The people you work with are more
than just people you see at work. The
amount of time you spend with them
makes a big impact on your life in general.
I’ve been very lucky in both of my jobs to
find a place where I enjoy coming to work.
The one thing I would add about
whether to go to law school is that the fi‑
nancial part of it has become even a bigger
deal. When I went to law school, I had to
make a very big decision about whether I
was comfortable taking on this amount of
debt. I paid for law school with some schol‑
arships and then loans. It’s a lot of money.
ELLSWORTH: I would say I had a differ‑
ent approach because one of the decisions
my wife and I had to make before law
school was whether I stopped working or
kept working and did the evening program.
I got into schools that offered both, so we
had those options.
I ended up going with the night pro‑
gram. That was the best thing I could have
done. The personalities and the people
that I met in the night class were a lot
more collegial. Everybody had already
worked a full day. And it was ‘Let’s just get
this done together. I don’t need to hide the
ball from you, you don’t need to hide the
ball from me.’ I’m too tired to waste my
energy on that.
It was a really cooperative environ‑
ment. I gained a lot out of that.
My point of comparison is that as it
went on, I did take some day classes. I no‑
ticed a more competitive environment and
it was a little foreign to me.
I had the luxury of choosing classes that
interested me because the subject matter
interested me. I got a lot more out of school
because of that. That is something I’d rec‑
ommend to students, whether they are in
law school already or going to law school:
take classes that interest you, because you
don’t know what you’re going to be practic‑
ing five years or even right when you get
out. Even then, if you take all of the classes
law week colorado
october 31, 2011
associate roundtable
heather joyce
surrounding what you think you’re going
to practice, they are not going to cover all
of the aspects of what you need to know.
You’re going to have to learn on the job. It’s
an apprenticeship.
The advice I always give to people be‑
fore they go to law school is that this is not
something you do as a recreational thing.
It’s really hard. And it was harder for me
just because I came from a background
in engineering where it’s black and white,
right and wrong answers.
It’s a hard thing to wrap your head
around, as an engineer, there’s a whole
world of gray. Law school taught me how
to navigate the gray. That’s where I’m intel‑
lectually stimulated, and that’s where the
challenge is as attorneys. That’s why we’re
all employed, because there is so much
gray. It’s something I enjoy now, and that’s
something I thrive on. With the right atti‑
tude, law school can be good.
But just don’t go do it because it’s the
next thing you think you should do. And
commit yourself to do the best you can.
FREDERICK: I didn’t go to DU, but I am
involved with the mentoring first‑year
program with their law school. That is a
phenomenal program. I had not heard of
a program before where you get a student
and you work with them throughout the
year. And to give a student that type of
insight into—one, the legal community,
where you can start networking already,
but, two, to get the chance to see what it’s
really like is phenomenal.
I didn’t really know a lot of lawyers.
I didn’t have any lawyers in my family
growing up. Your law school prepares you
intellectually. Like I’ve heard them say, It
teaches you how to think. But you show
up on the job, and there’s all of these things
that no one ever told you about.
Just learning how to navigate the offices
and how different programs work and how
to be a lawyer is really important. That’s a
great program that other schools should
jump on just to make getting involved in
the community important from the first
year, especially in this economy.
LAW WEEK: Well that brings up an inter‑
esting point. The move in some law schools
is to create more practical experiences.
Would anyone like to speak to wishing they
had more practical experience and/or feel‑
ing like they didn’t get the right amount of
practical experience while in school?
ELLSWORTH: Almost all of Europe prac‑
tices law where you have one year of study
and two or three years of apprenticeship.
It’s interesting to get the perspective of at‑
torneys who have done something like that.
It’s valuable experience. But one thing
you might miss out on is the ability to find
your calling, because you might get pigeon‑
holed earlier before you get the full breadth
of options. So that can be a downside.
FREDERICK: There should be much more
practical training. For example, I did not
appreciate at the time I left law school what
an advantage it would be to clerk. And
I didn’t clerk. It’s something that I wish I
would have done, because I was lucky to
have some great mentors and great teach‑
RUTTEN: I totally agree. A lot of the people
I went to work with went to DU, and they
talk a lot about their clinics and things like
that. That was a lot different from where I
went to school. They were just starting a
clinic program when I was in school there.
So I didn’t participate.
I did a lot of review and moot court,
and things like that. So when I say I came
out ready to write a brief, that’s because I
was a nerd, and I stuck to the books and
that’s what I did. I wrote, and I researched.
I felt prepared in that way to come out and
write.
But I can remember Halloween
my first year out of law school, when I
went to a criminal hearing with one of
the criminal attorneys in my office, and
I thought I was just going to observe.
He was kind enough to say, ‘No, you’re go‑
ing to go do it. Just go.’
Criminal hearings can be very quick,
and you’re up there for two seconds. I was
so nervous. I didn’t even know how to enter
my appearance. I said, ‘What do I do when
I get up there?’
The people you work with are more than just people you see at
work. The amount of time you spend with them makes a big impact
on your life in general.”
— Kim Frederick
ers. And I still have that today, which has
helped me overcome that. But to have
clerked or even taken more of the classes
that I took in law school, like pretrial advo‑
cacy, would be great. Had I not taken those
skill classes, I wouldn’t know about local
rules or federal rules or all of these different
things that people think you should know
when you graduate. It’s amazing to think
you can graduate law school and not learn
how to run a case.
There should be some kind of track
where if you’re interested in corporate
crafting, if you’re interested in litigation, or
just basic skills, you can find them.
He said, ‘You just say your name and
your bar number, and I’m representing so
and so.’
I didn’t even know how to do that. I
knew how to write and research and do
that, but I didn’t know how to enter my ap‑
pearance on the record.
It took a lot of training for me to learn
how to be a lawyer. I knew how to think like
a lawyer and research like a lawyer, but to
be a lawyer, not so much. It took training.
THOMPSON: I’ll add a couple of points
to that. DU’s practical training is really
outstanding. In addition to bringing in a
lot of the best adjuncts or best practicing
attorneys in different areas, they did have
an outstanding clinic program where I was
able to get my feet wet in litigating cases.
One of my busiest weeks was 50 hours
in the clinic, filing a lawsuit, answering,
briefing, and so forth. It really was invalu‑
able to my experience and growth as an
attorney.
I took a practicum as well from a for‑
mer tough, seasoned New York litigator. He
gave us this horror story as he introduced
the class. He said, ‘My first day on the job,
big law firm, a partner slapped down a
complaint on my desk and said, Answer
this. And he left the office.’ And he realized
he had no idea how to answer a complaint.
You think, how is that possible? How
can you go through three years of law
school and not know how to do something?
But, it is a definite reality.
I’m so glad I listened to him, and I took
his course, because that was my very first
assignment on the job. Someone gave me a
complaint and said, ‘Go answer this.’
I wrote my professor an email saying,
‘Thank you so much.’
It’s really important to also have flex‑
ibility in what you want to do, because you
never know what type of law you’re going
to practice. I agree that you should get a
wide experience, because the kind of law
you end up practicing might be nothing
like what you would first envision. And,
frankly, you make yourself more market‑
able being able to speak, at least intelli‑
gently, about various subject matters, even
if that’s not what you’re hired to do.
LAW WEEK: What emphasis are you all
placing on being partner?
FREDERICK: I think it would be difficult to
work in a firm environment if you weren’t
aiming for partner, because the dedication
it requires, the sacrifice really is working
towards a goal. Partner is something that
you definitely work for. You see that mak‑
ing partner starts a whole new level of
challenges and expectations. So it’s not an
easier road. But it’s kind of a culmination of
the hard work you put in.
Even though I’ve only been at Davis
Graham for about two years now, I feel that
I leave a part of myself there, that I’ve given
a part of myself to the firm. So the opportu‑
nity to become part owner or to be invested
in this firm that I’ve already given so much
of myself to is important as far as validating
or valuing what you’ve done.
JOYCE: I have the good fortune to work
at a firm that won’t hire you as an associate
unless they expect and anticipate you be‑
coming a partner at the firm. I think that’s
probably an increasingly rare business
model. After they tell you that expectation,
they really focus on investing in you, and
how they can help you become a fantastic
lawyer in the field that you choose.
They do a really good job of allowing
me, as an associate, to explore the different
fields and take a test drive in transaction
law or take a test drive in commercial liti‑
gation or natural resources.
And so I haven’t really thought about
the whole partner track since I started
there, because I’ve been so enveloped in
what I’m doing and getting into what I’m
doing.
From a partner’s perspective, that’s the
point. They want you to be focused on being
a good lawyer and not just showing them that
you’re there all of the time. They want you to
be as invested in them as they are in you.
law week colorado
october 31, 2011
associate roundtable
I would anticipate around, your fourth,
fifth, or sixth year, you start thinking about
that as a goal. But, for me, the career goal
right now is to learn as much as I can and
make sure that it’s something I really want
to be invested in, because as soon as you
find that, I think that’s really where your
career takes off.
ELLSWORTH: I’ve tried to not build up
partnership for a couple of reasons. One
is it’s good to have goals, but I think if you
make partner your goal, then you’re setting
yourself up for some sort of monumental
disappointment. Law firms, more and more
frequently, are going to the tiered partner‑
ship. So even though you’re a partner in
name, maybe it isn’t what you expect to be
in terms of a partner. And you still have all
of these new headaches that you have to
deal with, plus the old headaches that you
were dealing with. The only thing you don’t
have to worry about is am I going to make
partner this year.
So I’ve always just tried to take the ap‑
proach like Heather has, treat it like the
billable hour. You know, it’s going to work
itself out if you’re focused on giving good
work to your clients, you’re focused on
meeting your clients’ needs, you keep busy,
and you’re generally just trying to do a
good job and learn and give good customer
service.
If you do that, your billable hours will
just end up working themselves out. And
after the right amount of time, the partner‑
ship thing will either work itself out or it
won’t, but at least you will have developed
the right relationships.
THOMPSON: I completely agree that your
expectation and goal should be to make
partner, and that is quite likely the rea‑
son that you’re getting hired. At the same
time, what does partnership mean to you?
Because if that’s the only way you define
success, I think that it’s very difficult to
control something that is in the hands of
other people.
So you should focus on things that you
can control, such as getting the most prac‑
tical experience you can. In my field, one of
the ways to do that is having a very active
pro bono practice. You get to meet really
wonderful people and make, sometimes,
pivotal differences in their lives. It’s very
fulfilling and rewarding, and it balances out
some of the paperwork and long hours as
you burn the candle at both ends.
That’s what marketing is about, too,
starting to build the relationships around
the community and having a great attitude
about the whole thing makes a big difference.
RUTTEN: I feel like my firm invested in
me, too, when they decided to extend me
an offer to come on the team as an attorney.
I also feel like I have left a part of myself at
the firm when I leave at night. I feel com‑
pletely invested in what I am doing. I don’t
go to work every day and think ‘Am I going
to make partner today or are they going to
offer it to me tomorrow or the next week or
the week after that?’ That isn’t really what
my goal is.
I go to work every day because I believe
in the philosophy at Donelson Ciancio &
Goodwin, I love the people I work with, I
love my clients, I love my practice area. I’m
school, I started at a somewhat different
time, because the economy was boom‑
ing. It came to a point where I could walk
across the street, get the same job, do the
same thing, and get paid several tens of
thousands more. And the reason I didn’t
was because I liked where I was, because I
believed in where I was. I see that same idea
at Davis Graham.
Now, lawyers seem to be more and
more transient, switching firms, and go‑
ing different places. And I think you need
to make the associates really feel that they
are a part of the firm, that they are a part
of something bigger than a business, that
this is more than just a job. By doing that,
you need to develop relationships between
the other associates, between the associ‑
ates and the partners and really, somewhat,
brand the firm in the way where the as‑
sociate doesn’t want to leave, because they
don’t want to leave what they have created.
Please don’t be afraid to be creative in the way you manage the firm,
in the way you work with associates and in the way that you think
about the business.”
— Matt Ellsworth
there because I want to be successful, and
I want to show the people that I work with
that I’m invested in the firm, and I’m there
to do a good job.
I just think that will come back to me.
If it means me being managing partner at
some point or a partner, then that’s awe‑
some, and I am happy to excel in my posi‑
tion. And I do hope, at some point, I get
there, but it isn’t something that I dwell on
every day. And I haven’t really heard other
people at my firm talk a whole lot about
it, because I think they share the same
thoughts about it that I do. They are not
there to make partner. They are there to do
a good job and prove themselves.
There’s a sense of appreciation for hav‑
ing the opportunity to work there.
LAW WEEK: Imagine yourself in a room
with Denver managing partners. What ad‑
vice would you have for them with regard
to the practice of law, the business of the
practice of law?
FREDERICK: When I came out of law
There are lots of firms that do great work,
but what makes the difference is the people.
I’m lucky to have found that. But it’s im‑
portant, and sometimes overlooked, that
the importance of making associates really
understand why they are there.
ELLSWORTH: That’s right on, but I was
thinking of something different when you
asked that question. I would want to say
please don’t be afraid to be creative in the
way you manage the firm, in the way you
work with associates and in the way that
you think about the business. We were
talking earlier about how hard it is to work
under the pressure of a billable hour—not
just a billable hour, but a billable six‑min‑
ute increment. And our firm has taken
steps to, maybe, get away from that to some
extent by working flat‑fee type deals, being
creative in the way that they approach proj‑
ects with their clients, working with them.
That has made it a lot more fulfilling. In
a down economy—or even in an up econ‑
omy, the firms and the companies that are
most creative and most willing, perhaps, to
try something that is not the way we’ve done
this for a hundred years might be those that
benefit most. I think the first movers in cre‑
ativity might be the ones that benefit most.
JOYCE: I was thinking along the same
lines, although he put it, perhaps, much
more eloquently. The only thing I would
add to that is make sure to communicate
that struggle and that internal dialogue
with your associates and with everyone
in your firm, because the more people
you have on a problem, the more solu‑
tions you can find to that problem. And
although an associate might not have a
lot of legal experience, they might have
tons of business experience, or they
might have just a different perspective of
how to approach a problem. And that’s
really how we solve problems. That’s
what lawyers do.
RUTTEN: I think it’s creating that
team‑oriented atmosphere where every‑
body feels like there’s comradery, where
there’s an open‑door policy. If I need to go
to an associate, like you were saying earlier,
someone would cover for me in a heart‑
beat. If I have a question, my partner’s door
is always open.
The senior managing partner of our
firm, Steve Donelson, always says ‘If you’re
unhappy, then come and tell me. I’ll help
you find somewhere else to go, because you
shouldn’t come to work and feel unhappy
every day.’ It’s so nice to know that even
if you decided this isn’t really for me any‑
more, and I want to go try something dif‑
ferent, then we have to support the people
around us to go, and they are going to help
us.
So that’s my advice. That’s how a man‑
aging partner should be.
THOMPSON: I’ll say the managing part‑
ners that I know are tremendous people
and outstanding lawyers and do a fantastic
job in managing the practice of law through
one of the most difficult periods in our pro‑
fession’s history since the great depression.
And it’s a very difficult and challenging
environment. And it’s dynamic, constantly
evolving, both from client demand as well
as through recruiting. The law firms that are
represented here seem to have done a very
good job of taking that in and making the
adjustments necessary to be successful. •