PANEL DISCUSSION
"CONSIDERING PERCEPTIONS"
LUCAS: Okay. So we'll get started on our first panel session of the day.
So the title of this panel is called "Considering Perceptions". And the idea
here is to explore some social perceptions of artists and artworks created from
supported studios. In order to have a diverse range of points of view, we have
people representing commercial galleries, supported studios and artists.
And so on the panel today - on this panel this morning - are Sim Luttin from
Arts Project Australia; and Sky Saxon, who's an artist who works with the supported
studio called Studio Arts; and Gab Mordy, who's an arts worker at Studio Arts, and
Damien Minton from his eponymous gallery - is that correct term; and Evan Hughes
from The Hughes Gallery.
So the order of talking is going to go in this direction, isn't it, Josie?
JOSIE: There is.
LUCAS: Yes.
JOSIE: But there is also one artist (inaudible).
LUCAS: So we have a presentation from Greg Sindel, who also works with Studio
Arts. So Gabrielle will introduce that when we get to it.
So I think some of the interesting things that were raised by Glenn's talk
around these questions about how to frame things, what kind of information to
provide to audiences or to collectors before or after the presentation of the work
itself - how to separate out that kind of extra info from the experience, the aesthetic
experience of the work, are that some of the issues that I think the speakers here
today may address in their discussions, from their own experiences of working in this
area.
So first of all we're going to start out with Sim Luttin from Arts Project
Australia. So you can feel free to stand up and -SIM: Stand.
LUCAS: -- prance around, yes.
SIM: And hopefully that one works. If everyone can hear me.
1
www.stenocaptionsaustralia.com
denise.lamont@y7mail.com
I want to thank Josie and Accessible Arts for coordinating this forum, and for
inviting me to participate on behalf of Arts Project Australia here today. I'm the
Gallery Manager and Curator at Arts Project Australia, and I've been working at the
organisation for about five years.
I'm going to focus on two main projects at Arts Project, which we're currently
working on, that we found highly effective in breaking down common barriers and
perceptions in the community - and I'll come to those shortly.
I'll start by giving you a brief context of where I'm coming from, and briefly
highlight three common perceptions we regularly deal with in the gallery.
Slide 2. So we're a centre of excellence that supports artists with intellectual
disabilities, promoting their work and advocating for inclusion within contemporary
arts practice. This underpins everything we do at the organisation. And while we
have a beautiful, light-filled studio, I'm not going to be focussing on that today. I'm
going to be talking about the way that we've collaborated, artists, curators and
organisations in connecting our artists with the broader contemporary art community.
Next slide.
There are still common perceptions that we experience every day at Arts
Project Australia, through projects we embark on. And we're trying to change these
perceptions and move them forward and change the way people think and respond
to our organisation and our artists' work.
The first perception is that we should exhibit our artists' work in public spaces
for free, because it's good publicity. And I'm not talking about galleries here. I'm
talking about public spaces, other alternative spaces. We think it's about making the
right professional choices for our artists, and also being time and cost effective for
the organisation. We want to build relationships with reputable businesses and
organisations that will present our artists' work professionally, always.
Whether they exhibit the work, lease it or buy it, we are always looking for
angles that generate an income for our artists. So we tend to stay away from
hanging work in cafes and businesses, and instead direct them to support our
organisation and artists through our leasing program.
Was that the next slide? It's also commonly perceived that we should give
away our images cost free, because it's good publicity for the artists. We get
approached by individuals and organisations regularly to use our artists' images for
free, because it's good publicity and they're doing us a favour. You don't go to a
lawyer to get a service for free, So about five years ago, when our team came on
board, we decided to stop this practice once and for all. And since then all requests
to use images are done through a nonexclusive image licensing agreement, and
images are provided for a fee, 100% of which goes to the artists. And I'm not talking
2
www.stenocaptionsaustralia.com
denise.lamont@y7mail.com
about newspapers and magazines, this is for people just wanting to use great
images.
Next slide. The final perception is that we should discount or donate artwork
because it's good for publicity. Yes, it's good to get the artists' work out there.
However, you have to draw the line and use your discretion. With similar
commercial considerations to a traditional gallery - and Arts Project, we're a
not-for-profit organisation, but we're also straddling that fence of operating like a
commercial gallery. So with this in mind, we price our artworks very reasonably.
And because of this we don't discount our artwork. It's my experience that this isn't a
deterrent, and 95% of the time, or even 98% of the time, the client comes around
and eventually purchases the work anyway.
So with that context in mind, the two main projects I want to talk about briefly
is our External Curator Program and the collaborative project, "Knowing Me Knowing
You".
The main aim of our ongoing External Curator Program is introduce prominent
curators to Arts Project Australia, and our artists. As a result, we've worked with a
broad range of curators in Melbourne and Sydney, including Professor Colin
Rhodes, Lindy Judge, Alex Baker, Mark Feary, Kimberley Hammond, Jeff Newton,
and next year we'll be working with Glenn Barkley from the MCA.
We want the experience to be in-depth, meaningful and professional, where
we learn best practice initiatives and learn from experienced curators. And the
external curators then learn about our organisation in detail, and come to know
significantly more about our artists they become interested in.
These partnerships often lead to other opportunities, which we feel would not
have eventuated without this intimate knowledge of who our artists and we are. And
it's these opportunities, the ones that take on a life of their own, beyond Arts Project,
which we think is one of the greatest measures of success in extending our reach
and breaking down the barriers.
Some of the curators knew us, but it was the opportunity for them to come
and spend considerable time at our organisation. For interstate curators we've
worked on, we correspond regularly online. That has created links that will extend
well into the future, and likely change the way those curators work with other
supported studios, organisations and artists.
The curators have the freedom to make the connections between our artists
and the broader contemporary art world, which challenge common perceptions of
how our artists' work should be presented, viewed and critiqued. This opens a
conversation about how artists who have intellectual disabilities work should be
presented.
3
www.stenocaptionsaustralia.com
denise.lamont@y7mail.com
We've even been accused by a prominent Melbourne artist of looking too
much like other commercial galleries and other arts organisations. So it's interesting
to hear that, and it made me ask the question - so what's wrong with that? We want
to continue to challenge ideas about presenting artwork professionally in the broader
contemporary art context.
It's interesting and important to challenge these pre-existing and perhaps
slightly protectionist paradigms of how work should be presented. By inviting
experienced curators who do what they do best, and include our artists' work in the
mix. It's also important if we want in to the contemporary arts sector, so to speak, if
we want to frame it that way, that we actively invite this sector into our world.
Okay. The second project I will touch on is "Knowing Me Knowing You", and
we're currently in the thick of this project. Our aim is to make wide and lasting
connections between Arts Project Australia's contemporary artists and external
contemporary artists. More broadly, we want to break down the gap between artists
practising with a disability, contemporary artists and the contemporary arts sector.
We invited curator Lindy Judge, who we'd worked with on two previous
collaborative projects, to work on a truly collaborative exploration involving 10 of our
studio artists and 10 artists over one year. Some of those artists were well known to
each other and had worked together previously, and others were new to the project.
We engaged cinematographer Shelly Farthing-Dawe to document the project
from beginning to end, and that will be edited into a short documentary in early 2014,
that we'll share with the broader community. So we committed to the project, then
sought funding to back it. And thanks to Arts Victoria and the Beason Foundation,
it's funded according to standards we've set, based on NAVA recommendations,
including that artists are paid and supported accordingly.
The project culminates in a range of finished artworks exhibited at Arts Project
Australia in February 2014, as part of our 40th anniversary program. Apart from
having artistic outcomes, the project question's a collaborative process itself, by
exploring the complex nature of collaboration between external artists, and artists
with an intellectual disability.
Initial perceptions held by the external artists in the beginning were around
how the collaboration would be managed, what support our artists might need and
what support they would receive; what were the project expectations, and how were
the communication between artists, curator and organisation be handled.
So perceptions we've challenged included that it's a good experience for the
artists at Arts Project. We sometimes still hear this, and it's very one-sided, and the
fact is that "Knowing Me Knowing You" has been pivotal for all artists involved. It's
provided opportunities to introduce new mediums, art forms, environments, and
ways of working that many of our artists wouldn't normally have, and vice versa.
4
www.stenocaptionsaustralia.com
denise.lamont@y7mail.com
Other perceptions challenges - challenged included that true collaboration is
difficult. And don't get me wrong - there were challenges, and it takes a lot of work.
However, collaboration creates opportunities for artists to expand their current
practice and develop their communication skills in challenging circumstances. All of
the artists had to make concessions for each other and adjust their regular working
routine to accommodate another person with different ideas, needs and ways of
working. And many of the external artists commented that they learnt so much from
the experience and that they'd do it again.
Another perception was that communication is hard. It can be, but that's not a
reason to do it - or not to do it. It takes time, patience and nurturing to make
collaboration work - like any relationship. Overcoming various communication
difficulties between artists was trying at times, but through perseverance and a
genuine willingness to connect, most obstacles were overcome.
The final perception challenge was that establishing an equitable working
framework is hard, or isn't possible. We think it is possible, and that collaborative
projects must start with a framework of equality. In this case, all artworks were
completed collaboratively from start to finish, negotiated by the artists. The project
was set up with clear systems of conduct that established the ethical ground rules for
the project, which we expected all artists to follow at all times.
What had to be acknowledged from the outset was that there was a power
imbalance. So we did our best to ensure the external artists were acutely aware of
this, and would adjust the way they approach the project accordingly. So decisions
were made involving both artists, equitably.
We really think these two projects outlined today has set new benchmarks for
the way we'll work with artists, curators and peak organisations into the future. It's
an approach based on transparency, openness and professionalism, that always
puts our artists first.
If we work this way, we think others will too. And that's how we can shift
perceptions and effect change. And I just wanted to finish on the next slide, which is
a video, that goes for no time, if it works.
LUCAS: So are we going to jump to Greg's video next? Yes.
Our next two presentations are presenting points of view from artists. And I
think one of the really good things that Josie and the team were able to do is think
about different modes of presentation.
So Greg Sindel has chosen to present today, rather than in person, by putting
forward a video for us to watch. And then, so we'll just watch that and then we'll
pass over to Sky.
Yes. Gabrielle, do you want to say a few words about it?
5
www.stenocaptionsaustralia.com
denise.lamont@y7mail.com
GABRIELLE: Thanks. I don't really have much more to say except Greg's been
coming to Studios Arts for about - maybe, like, a decade, and it's been Greg's
dedication to his art's practice that has been a key inspiration in starting a program
like the Studio Artists program that we initiated at Studios Arts about two years ago.
Greg would normally be here in person, but he's on his biannual holiday,
which was scheduled much, much earlier in the year and could not be changed. So
he has decided to present in a digital format today. So I don't really need to say
anymore.
LUCAS: While we're waiting for the video tech to be sorted out, we'll move on to
Sky Saxon, and then we'll come back to Greg's video in a minute.
So, Sky, would you like to - are you going to sit down and speak or stand up?
Up to you. I'll pass over to Sky Saxon, who's an artist from Studio Artists.
(Applause)
SKY: I have been coming to Studios for several years. Over the last two years, I
joined the Studio Arts program. This program is especially for artists who have
grown out of Studio Arts.
About the Studio Arts program, my life would not be very interesting. In the
Studio Arts program I have been able to develop and publish my own thing. And so
this work, "Kinokuniya Books" - I have developed and worked as a performance
artist at Carriage Works, and I'm about to show my own puppet and animation work
at Gaffa Gallery.
Before the Studio Arts program, I didn't think the world saw me as an artist. I
didn't see myself as an artist. I saw myself as different to everybody else. I saw
myself as my character Skyfawkes. Instead of having skin, I saw myself having fur,
which is like a second layer of skin. In my imagination, I see myself with fur. That
means I can do what foxes do. Making the puppets of Skyfawkes in the Studio Arts
program has helped bring my characters to life.
I like working in the Studio Arts program because there are less people I can
talk with, a more indoor voice, and I don't have to yell with an outdoor voice.
I also like really making puppets with Ella, the puppeteer master from Erth. If I
didn't show my work in exhibits, I would be sadly disappointed. I really like - prefer to
exhibit my puppets and work at Carriage Works and Kenya than places I have
exhibited in the past.
I like showing my work to people that really like books and art.
6
www.stenocaptionsaustralia.com
denise.lamont@y7mail.com
In August I spent the week working at Carriage Works, experimenting with
different ways to make puppets, and made my own set of wings, inspired by my
character Midnight. After I made the wings, I strapped them onto me, I walked out of
the studio door and started running. Everyone followed me to the big open foyer
space.
I first walked fast enough that I felt like I was actually flying, and at the end I
was so exhausted, but I felt like I had achieved one of my major goals. Showing my
work at Kenya and Carriage Works made me feel really good, really involved. They
make me feel like I had levelled up from a drop down. It made me feel like I'd
powered up. It made me feel useful.
There is a difference to showing my own artwork at Carriage Works, to
showing my artwork at Studio Arts Gallery in Hornsby. The feeling is different at
Carriage Works. I feel like I'm walking on the water, like I have a magic force field.
After showing my work at Carriage Works, mum told me that she thinks I'm
strange. I also think I'm strange, but I think this is cool. It is cool to be able to play
with the strange parts of myself to make artworks from this place and share with an
audience.
I want the world to see me as an artist. When I flew at Carriage Works in front
of the crowd, I felt happy, I felt glad I didn't crash into a pole. I felt proud of myself.
It can feel scary and hard to be an artist, but it is worth it for the feeling of
exhilaration it brings me.
(Applause)
LUCAS: Thanks very much, Sky.
We're going to try one more time with Greg, Greg Sindel's video. We'll see if
we have any luck this time.
(Video plays - Video presentation)
GREG: :
Hello, my name is Greg Sindel, and this is my current book
'Watch'.
I'm 25 years old and have been an artist and story-teller all my
life. For example, I wrote and illustrated this book when I was
eight years old - 'Frankenstein'.
How do you think the world sees you as an artist?
7
www.stenocaptionsaustralia.com
denise.lamont@y7mail.com
I am very happy and I love the very idea of people buying my
art stuff and also saying that I'm gifted, skilled and very
talented.
I have been going to Studio Arts in Hornsby since I was a
14-year-old teenager. In case you're wondering, this is one of
the unique drawings in which it was used for the cover of this
very book.
Why do you think the world sees you as an artist?
That is a very fair question. Because of my unique brilliant
stories, my simple cartoons and, of course, my inspirations
from my favourite books and movies, my artworks have been
shown at Studio Arts shows, Gallery Arts, Hornsby TAFE, the
Callan Park Gallery, The Paper Mill and, of course, the Gaffa
Gallery.
My favourite thing to do is draw comic books. In 2012, Studio
Arts introduced me to my mentor and friend Lee Ragowsky,
senior artist extraordinaire. Therefore, we worked together by
completing and finishing and publishing my very, very first
comic book called 'Dracula'.
"Extra, extra - read all about it."
I shared Lee's stall at the 2012 (inaudible) Fair MZA, and sold
some of my comic books and my T-shirts. Then we spoke
about our partnership at two places, such as Sydney College,
and one of my favourite comic book stores of the whole world,
Kinokuniya.
I also attended the opening of Lee's art show in a commercial
gallery. Oh gosh, this art show is so totally great and nice. I
would simply like to have an art show of my own. It's got to be
so big.
This year I have been working on a brand new comic book
known as "Horrendous myths". It is a collection of four stories
of horror, humour and, above all else, the macabre. I have
been working with Lee to make an animation of the very first
horrendous live story called, "The Haunted Gallery".
Warning - what you're about to see is likely to thrill you, shock
you and may even horrify you, but if you still want to see
it - well, don't say we didn't warn you.
8
www.stenocaptionsaustralia.com
denise.lamont@y7mail.com
(Scream)
"Most gruesome tale is all about the power of art, paintings and
a greedy teacher who gets more than he could handle. So
without further ado, lets listen to the old story of "The Haunted
Gallery".
It was extremely amazing to bring my terrifying, ghoulish story
to life. I also narrated the story and did many different voices
for my characters. It has been really, really fun recording the
spooky sound effects as well, I'm sure.
I have been working on another project with Aaron Dociak from
Earth, to turn my character, Mark Lee, the evil, scary ghost of
"The Haunted Gallery" into a funny but wicked hand puppet.
When from paper to puppetry appears at the Gaffa Gallery on
the 14th of November 2013, I shall be very, very proud to show
my nice animation and my puppet to everybody.
Then everybody will be able to experience my very incredible
imagination and my artistic vision coming alive, just like
Frankenstein's monster. It's alive! It's alive!
(Growling)
Thank you for listening to my story.
Goodnight, everybody.
LUCAS: Fantastic. We're going to pass now to Damien Minton, who prefers to
speak without a microphone. Is that fine from a tech point of view? Yes. Okay.
DAMIEN: You can hear me down the back, can't you.
(Inaudible). She said her mother thinks that she's strange, she thinks that
she's strange and that's cool. So my perspective, I think, is embrace the term and
own it, in a way.
The reason I say that is that we had an exhibition of Clarrice Collien through
(inaudible), who is here, and part of the organisers last year, and in the main room
was a pretty important exhibition by an artist who is no longer with us, called Michael
Callaghan, but in the second room was Clarice's work.
And every time that we have an exhibition, I get up just to thank the artist, so I
can focus the room and to give them the applause that, you know, from that last
18 months or year's work is worthy of. And here I was sort of waxing lyrical, and all
of a sudden Clarice's boyfriend, Dave, came right up next to me and just stood there,
9
www.stenocaptionsaustralia.com
denise.lamont@y7mail.com
and I'm going, "Sure", so I kept on going, but tell me an artist with a PhD from the
National Arts School who would come up right next to me - or her boyfriend or her
girlfriend that would do that - and then I thanked Clarrice.
And Clarrice then walked up in front of everyone, and she started saying, "I
wake up at 7.30 and I have Vegemite toast and a couple of tea, and then I start
working on my work." And I thought, "Isn't that great how she just wrote down what I
was trying to create", and the audience, of course, loved it. But there's no way that
Michael Callaghan would have done the same thing. Protocol would have been for
him to respond if he was there, and wanted to.
So you are dealing with difference. And I think that, you know, this is where
you guys, who are in all these successful arts workshops and programs and things
like that, are so important for me, is that I can't really deal with Clarrice on the
mechanics of an exhibition. She's not going to get me high res JPEGs in order to
use them for the invitations, in order to get them going up on the website, do all the
free publicity and to go through and get all the framing done, and to go through all
that negotiation.
Now, Clarrice, you get 60%, I get 40%, you know, and then we break it down,
and then we have to talk about what is the pricing structure going to be, and things
like that. So that's where, I think that what I'm doing is not only working with Clarrice,
but I'm collaborating with Roomies, and Ruby's becomes just as important as the
artwork that's flowing through and onto the walls, and what we're doing is a
collaborative process to make sure that it's on the walls and it's there and it's
speaking to the audience.
So, you know, like terms of - is that outside or is that inside? It depends on
what we consider to be what's on the inside of what's going on, and thank god
there's people like Glenn Barkley on the inside, trying to break that down and say,
"Hang on. No, let's take a much more pluralist approach to what's going on." And I
applaud that. I have to sell artwork in order to be able to put bread and butter on my
table and on the artist's table, so there is a real process going on there, what I think
is going to work in the space, and what the pricing structure is going to be.
So I've been looking at Clarice's work for a good five years, and then it came
to a point, by talking through with Anne and Natalie, I think, "Well, look, I think it's
ready for us to sort of present this in more of a contemporary commercial context."
And I think it comes to a point where that happens.
Let's take another example. Where my galley is located in Elizabeth Street in
Redfern, it's not far - well, it is shadowed by the Housing Commission blocks at
Redfern, so believe me I get them all coming into the gallery, which is great, in a
way. Let me introduce you to Deputy Sheriff Erbos.
Deputy Sheriff Erbos walks into the gallery. He has his headphones on. It's
static. It's radio static. So he's obviously trying to get rid of his voices. But he
10
www.stenocaptionsaustralia.com
denise.lamont@y7mail.com
comes in, sometimes he gives me an offering of something, and I'll exchange a
dollar coin or a $2 coin, and we talk about art, and then he goes and he's happy.
He's now starting to bring in his artwork and because, you know, he stinks, which is
fine - but not for hours - so we developed this conversation.
Okay, so I bought an artwork from him, and I said, "Look, I'll give you $2 for
it." He goes, "Yes, fine." He's happy with that. So he goes away. Then he comes
back the next day and he has this artwork. And I say, "But I prefer the other
artwork." And he goes, "Oh, have you got that artwork? I didn't realise you had that
artwork. I need to think heaps of that artwork." And so, "Okay, well I'll swap." And
so I've now got this one."
Now, on Tuesday or Wednesday he came in and he said, "I want to introduce
you to my agent, to my manager", and there's this guy who would be in his 30s - you
know, medicated, his eyes are rolling, and I go, "Oh", so I joke and I said, "So you're
going to ask for $20 for this now." And he goes, "Oh, 10." Great manager.
So what I'm trying to say to you, here's my dilemma as a contemporary arts
dealer is that who determines that that is going to be worth $750 or the $2 that I paid
for it, right, for Deputy Sheriff Erbos. It's not there yet. I'd really like to think that I
can discover Deputy Sheriff Erbos, he might be at the Venice Biennale in 10 years
time, but I doubt it.
So it all comes down to our perceptions of what is and what isn't worthy of
being on the wall in a whole collective exhibition. So that's where I think that that
collaboration is really important for me with you guys, because it is a breach for that
artist and it's a breach for me. I'm a grumpy middle-aged art dealer, I don't have the
time to be dealing with Deputy Sheriff Erbos, in terms of his exhibition, because it
would never really come to fruition. So that's one thing.
The second thing is why do I - and why am I interested in putting that stuff on
my walls to sell. It's important for me to be able to sell it, but the other thing is you
want to sort of create a room of what your gallery is about, but for me what's
important is that it's a fairly eclectic mix. I like to sort of do things in many different
areas.
I show an artist called Simon Benday, who is from Boroka in Papua New
Guinea. And he would, I would consider, not as an outsider artist so much as a
naive artist, because he hasn't been trained formally. He comes from the school of
Kerowagi, and his work is all about current affairs. So he sells his artwork outside
the steps of the Birds of Paradise Hotel in Boroka.
So he's done about 10 versions of the 9/11 Twin Towers crashing, and he
does them with these amazing aeroplanes that look like Papua New Guinea Birds of
Paradise. And so, you know, like I have to accept that he's done 10 versions of this,
so where's the originality of that. Each one is original, but it's important for me to
11
www.stenocaptionsaustralia.com
denise.lamont@y7mail.com
have that sort of stuff in the mix, and it's great to have someone like Clarrice in the
mix with what I'm doing.
Why is that? And I've got be truthful with you - is it because it becomes like a
counterpoint. For my client base, you know, all of us are a bit jaundiced with this sort
of art with a capital A. You walk into something, you go, "Oh, this is art. Quick, get
my (inaudible) out, I must be able to (inaudible) this. And so the great thing to sort of
counteract that is outsider art, is art from the sort of the workshops that you're going.
For my client base, and the people that come in and view it, it's a refreshing
tonic. And it is different. It is strange. It is cool. And it's cool to be strange. And
that's where I think that you guys can work. And that's, from my experience of how I
use what you produce, and the artist that you work with, and I therefore work with,
that's where I think some of the definitions may come and go.
So that's all I want to say. Cheers.
(Applause)
LUCAS: So our final speaker on this panel is Evan Hughes from Hughes Gallery.
Would you like to use the microphone, Evan? Okay.
EVAN: Thank you very much. Always difficult to go last at these sorts of things,
because everyone's sort of pretty tired, but we'll see how we go.
Now, look, I've been asked to sort of talk about collecting. Glenn mentioned
my father earlier in the day. We've got a collection and gallery in Surry Hills. And
my dad, since 1969, has been collecting, for want of a better term, outsider art. He
put on a show in 1982 in Brisbane, which is a pretty outsider place, of the work of
Jean Dubuffet.
Now, Jean Dubuffet, the sort of quintessential art brew and definer of art brut
in many ways, was way ahead of Brisbane at the time. And it took an American
curator, who happened to be in town at the time, to go into the Queensland Art
Gallery and say, "Buy the biggest thing, you'll never get anything like this again."
And they did. And on that note, you know, Glenn sort of said, "If it's in the Venice
Biennale it must be over.
Well, tell you what, if it's in the Venice Biennale now, it will be in Australia,
thanks to the curators, in about two years. So we're still on fire, guys.
I'm going to talk a little bit about collecting, but I also want to talk about why
we're here and touch on a few more points that Glenn came up with.
Now, I'm wearing my Chicago tie, partly because the American painting show
opens tonight at the Art Gallery of New South Wales. Partly because Chicago is in
12
www.stenocaptionsaustralia.com
denise.lamont@y7mail.com
many ways the home - the original home, the spiritual home of outsider art and
American folk art and so forth.
There are two very important dealers for this entire world of outsider art, and
I'm going to use that term ad nauseam because that is the term we have. I'm very
happy for it to be challenged. I think intuitive art's another one I quite like; but, you
know, let's agree to call it outsider art for the rest of this sort of five minutes.
There's two dealers there - Carl Hammer and Phyllis Kind. Now, they in the
1980s, started showing people who were making things in their own imaginations
and minds. And they'd bring them to someone like Phyllis, and Phyllis would say,
"You know what, that's really, really great. That's something. Let's hang it on the
walls", way before anyone would consider it fine art or high art or anything like that.
And today, some of the - I was at the Chicago Art Fair last September, and
some of those artists - Martin Ramirez, Bill Trailer Yoakum, now sell for
$160,000-$200,000. They were, back in 1982, like a grand and, you know, probably
let's be honest, unscrupulous dealers, unlike Phyllis and Carl - they were always
very, very good - would have bought them for $5 here and there.
Very famous artist Lee Godie - I know she sort of divides opinion. I think
she's wonderful. She was a homeless woman in Chicago, who was constantly - I
know a guy that knew her. She'd constantly walk around with a roll of 100s on her
person - you know, like maybe five, six grand in her pocket. And none of the other
homeless ever bothered her because, you know, they knew she was cool. And
dealers would go to her and buy her things for cash and then sell them for sort of
thousands of dollars more.
These are the early days of outsider art, you've to remember. I know that
you'll get some interesting talks later in the day about the ethics behind the realm of
dealing and exhibiting, for want of a better term, outsider art. These are sort of
cowboy days back in the '80s, but it got to us where we are.
And someone asked Glenn, "Why are there only historical works in this year's
Biennale?" I think we're making up for lost time very much; so, yes, we had to have
a lot of the artists like Eugene Von Bruenchenhein, who wasn't an outsider per se in
the sense of being an artist with a mental disability or a physical disability, if that's
your definition, but rather, you know, an outsider in his own mind, who took some
pretty crazy photographs of his wife and, you know, for that is an outsider and yet,
you know, Richard Later's totally a high artist in this country.
That's an interesting - I just want to quickly touch on. The outsider/insider
thing that Glenn was talking about before. I'll tell you a couple of very funny stories.
David Lawall(?), the sort of leader of the Raw Studios scene recently passed away.
And towards the end of his life he was getting an enormous amount of care. He had
sort of lived a very hard life and was dying, you know, as the results of it as much as
anything else.
13
www.stenocaptionsaustralia.com
denise.lamont@y7mail.com
But an art therapist nurse came to his home one day and said, "Oh, look, the
local health services have sent me around, I'm here to do some art therapy with you,
Mr Larwall." And David looks up from his bed and says, "Go into that room, take a
look around and then piss off." David, of course, had been an artist.
The same happened to Sam Fulbrook(?). Sam Fulbrook would go and dry
out after long benders and they'd say, "No, you know what you need to do, Mr
Fulbrook, these are all very nice, but we can help you make them better." You know,
I just think they're two quite sort of interesting stories about sort of high artists that
have had this notion of assistance and supported studio sort of thing.
I want to touch very - you'll notice this is slightly rambling. You know, Damien
is a far more structured chap than I am, I'm a bit of rambler, but I want to talk about
labels because Glenn said this is going to be provocative. I think we - I had an
experience the other day where Josie took me out to a supported studio, out at
Macquarie Health, and I saw wonderful things.
My instinct immediately was to ask, "What are the stories behind these
artists?" Glenn, when he was talking about Dion's work, instantly said, "He's deaf,
he's in a wheelchair." I think from a collecting point of view, I know certainly,
because I exhibit a number of artists with disabilities at my gallery, and have done.
The first question I always - well, the first thing I always get is, "Oh, my kid could do
that." And that's not with artists with disabilities, that's with Joe Furlonger, an artist of
sort of 30 years. So I'm used to morons who come into the galleries with their own
preconceptions.
I mean, Christ, you have a gallery in Surry Hills, you get every moron,
including those who sort of are curators of museums, come in and give you their
preconceptions. That's not Glenn, obviously; but, you know, we deal with all comers,
as Damien rightly said. So I get so sick of preconceptions about what art is or
should look like.
Glenn was talking about my dad when he said, "I wanted to see art that is art
or that's real." This is where my term "intuitive art" is very important. I gave four
names to David over there to hopefully Google up, because I didn't realise - I didn't
get my act together and bring in a power point, but I reckon with all of the millions the
Mordens put into this place, a little wi-fi connecter, $30, I'll pop that in at the end of
today.
But if you've got your phones or you write it down, there's four artists I want to
just very briefly talk about, that everybody should know about. Henry Darger is one,
Alfred Wallis is another - and let's just say three. The third I'll give you is Matt Hunt.
Now, the first two are very much accepted to be extremely important artists in
the outsider sphere. Henry Darger was a janitor in a school in Chicago, who, at the
end of his life, after his death, his prolific output was discovered. And there were
14
www.stenocaptionsaustralia.com
denise.lamont@y7mail.com
reams, upon reams, upon reams of these highly elaborate, beautiful drawings and
water colours about an extraordinary world he'd invented, where he was the
protector of the children.
And some of these works were extraordinary, when you have a look at them.
I mean, some of them are highly sexualised, which is something that scares a lot of
museums away from them. I mean, this was a man who real genuinely cared about
the children in his mind, and that he was, you know, the janitor at their school, and
yet there was some pretty shocking things happening in them.
Now, he was thoroughly intuitive. His art was his means of communicating
with himself, because he showed it to nobody.
The other is Alfred Wallis. Now, Alfred Wallis, I would argue, is probably the
first artist to come out of the supported studio network. Alfred Wallis was, again, an
intuitive artist in Saint Ives this time in the UK. And Jim Eade who lived in Kettle's
Yard in Cambridge, constantly encouraged him to keep going - you know, whether it
was sending him paper, sending him money for paper, whatever. So it starts with
very small way forward, the supported network thing.
The third is Matt Hunt. Now, Matt Hunt is a New Zealand artist of extremely
high quality, who is formally trained, went to an arts school, but has invented the
universe called the Gohenner(?). And I say "invented" - he didn't invent it, he
envisaged it.
Now, Matt has these very serious Catholic sci-fi visions that I can totally vouch
for. I've travelled around the wire apple with him, and whether it's the heavy ganga
he smokes or not, these visions are totally real to him, and yet he's an entirely sort of
sane, compos mentis artist with no problems, no supported network whatsoever, and
yet he's a visionary.
Now, as I was saying to Bill Hammond, you know, there's a long history of
artists who are visionaries. And then I wanted to talk about artists in the inside, who
have far bigger problems than any physical or mental disability you could come up
against, whether it's alcoholism or their own sort of ego, which is probably the
biggest enemy of any artist in the world.
And, you know, I think Glenn's absolutely right. We do need to use this
afternoon's sessions to bring down the barriers a little bit. I want to say one thing
that I think's very important. One of them is we must grapple. We must grapple with
the biographies of the artists. I am perfectly happy to accept that there are some
instances where when we're talking to the studio networks and, you know, I might
say, "What is the story behind this artist?" And they might say, "Well, you can ask
them yourself." That's all very well in theory. When I get to the gallery and I have
someone coming to buy it from me, they will want to know. I will give you an
example.
15
www.stenocaptionsaustralia.com
denise.lamont@y7mail.com
One very, very wealthy international art collector who lives in Sydney, very
influential, came into my gallery six months ago, wasn't interested in outsider art;
went to the Venice Biennale, came back to my gallery two weeks later and said,
"Have you got any of that stuff left?" And, you know, this is the problem, this is what
we have to grapple with. Yes, that person is probably best described as a dickhead,
but they represent the people who, at the end of the day give Damien and me a
cheque for $2,000 that we can give the artist 60% thereof.
We do have to remember the eventual audience and kind of drop the political
correctness a little bit, because that is the reality we're in. And I'm not going to go
down any other path of how I think we can do that, that's for this afternoon. But I
would say from an industry point of view alone, that is the number one question I get
given by collectors and clients, and that is something we need to work through this
afternoon.
Collecting outsider art is a funny thing. If you've done it forever, like my dad
has, you get totally marginalised as having a pretty crazy mind. And if you do it
selectively after you've been authorised by the Venice Biennale, then you're a
visionary collector. Go figure.
(Applause)
LUCAS: Thanks, Evan. Do we have time for some questions to all of our panellists.
Just to remind you, we have the point of view of Arts Project Australia, as well
as the artists from Studio Arts, and then the point of view from two different
commercial galleries. So any of the issues that were raised along the way are fair
game for discussion now.
Josie has got the microphone if anybody wants to put their hand up and start
the conversation.
SUE: Thank you. It's Sue Roff from Arts Project Australia. Evan, you got me
thinking. Obviously, the story behind an artist is interesting, and the environment
that we work in, the story is quite often different, but do you get asked - perhaps I
ask Damien and Evan this - do you get asked about the story of people who aren't
outsider artists? Like, you know, is it interesting, "Oh, yes, well, you know, he lives in
a cottage on the Hawkesbury River." "He does have schizophrenia, but it only rears
his head once a year."
I mean, do you get asked about the back stories of artists who aren't outsider
artists?
DAMIEN: Well, I mean, you know, if you were to have a day at my gallery and it
was a time lapse sort of audio thing, you would hear me repeating the same story to
everyone who had come in, but it's a fresh story for them. And so you do
contextualise every artist that comes in.
16
www.stenocaptionsaustralia.com
denise.lamont@y7mail.com
But what would be - that's what I think, if I heard it correctly what Evan was
sort of saying, was that it sort of contextualises what it is, if you have that story of an
outsider artist a lot more.
See, what I would say, if it was sort of like a, you know, not an insider artist - I
don't know if we show insider or outsider artists with that sort of term, but let's say "a
normal artist" - if I was to have sort of like just the usual run, I would contextualise
them in terms of where they came from, their exhibition history, and what this - and
where that body of - where this body of work sort of fitted into that, more than sort of
the, you know, their condition, let's say.
EVAN: Yes, I think context is absolutely key. Let's look at Darger very quickly, and
put him against Del Kathryn Barton for instance. Del Kathryn Barton is beloved of
the Sydney art world, and one of the most successful Australian artists living today.
And Henry Darger was a funny marginalised janitor. Both of them make - have
made at times art about young women, like, 14-year-old girls with penises.
Now, the context is totally crucial. Without the context of Darger's mindset,
he's a paedophile. Without the context of Del Kathryn Barton being a young,
good-looking female, she's a paedophile. You know, this is in Australia where we
can say all sorts of things about our artists because we don't know any better. But,
yes, I think context is key, and it helps the gallery and the artists enormously to be
able to put it into some bracket.
Now, okay, that was an extreme example; but, yes, there is extreme - I
mentioned Joe Furlonger, who is an artist who paints in simplistic terms. Just bear in
mind the Australian art world on the whole is not very sophisticated. We need to
help them as much as possible. Well, it's a younger one than any in the world too.
DAMIEN: Just that second point that I was trying to bring up about counterpoint and
relationship abusing this work. If you go down to Mona right now for that Red Queen
Exhibition, there's a whole suite of Dargers’ there, and it's pretty much right at the
front. And so what those curators are trying to say is this is the context in which this
exhibition is. And it wants to trip you up in terms of your perceptions of what you
may be seeing for the whole exhibition. And so that is a great point, I reckon, in
terms of the beauty of where it can be used.
FEMALE SPEAKER: Just another question.
KRIS: Just in context to Darger's work, I suppose for me - and when I think about
the human element of Darger himself, and the fact that support - he wasn't
participating in a supported studio, or had access to that kind of thing, and that he
went through real-life trauma which, with the art therapy would have been important
in his life in a different way, I can't say. But the fact that he, after his death, became
successful, for me is the human failing. And that's, I suppose, ultimately, from the
supported studio perspective, is that is so key.
17
www.stenocaptionsaustralia.com
denise.lamont@y7mail.com
So that we can't avoid influencing each other. All these sectors, and all these
different areas, we can't help it, but at least there's an inclusion so that that capacity
to have a voice - and, I mean, that's just such a thrown around term, but that
capacity to be able to say, "This is what my perspective is", rather than a psychiatrist
going in there and describing what it was, "Oh, he's a paedophile, he's this, he's
that", when it actually wasn't. He came from a really core traumatic experience
when - from childhood and, you know, that's really important as well.
So that context is pivotal, but at the same time I think it's - I don't know what
you say. Confusing territory.
NEW SPEAKER: (Inaudible).
KRIS: Yes, that he didn't have those opportunities; that those opportunities weren't
sort of available to him in that way, and that - so, you know, the art world grabs that
body of work now, and we can do whatever we want with it and decide whatever we
want to decide with that work.
NEW SPEAKER: (Inaudible)
DAMIEN: Yes. And were they to have been, but this is the thing, it's the time of the
public as well. (A) were they to have been shown now, imagine what we could
(inaudible) five years ago.
FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes.
DAMIEN: You know. Come on. So I agree with the total. I would love to have
what, you know, a Henry Darger mind exposed to the broader art world like it is. And
we do have that now, because we are now coming to term with it, and we've got to
(inaudible) historically (inaudible).
DAVID: Just to extend this over to Simm from Arts Project. I remember Josie
mentioning something to me about how sometimes you guys are pretty careful about
the inclusion of biographical details in specific context as a strategic career decision.
SIM: I'll use this one. Just picking up from something Glenn said earlier, just about
artworks being exhibited in a broader context and it not being up in neon lights, that
that's been created by artists with a disability - you know, we very much come from
that perspective of presenting the artwork first. It's about the artwork first, the story
comes later.
And sometimes a story does come out and we do use the stories of some of
the artists when we're talking to clients in the gallery or in the studio, to give a bigger
picture. It's not what we lead with. And I had had a conversation with Josie leading
up to this where, you know, when we're entering artists into art competitions and
prizes, we've often debated where we do that with our letterhead, or whether we do it
18
www.stenocaptionsaustralia.com
denise.lamont@y7mail.com
in an envelope that's nondescript and we don't link it back to Arts Project for that
initial selection process.
Because we do want - we believe in the artwork and what the artists are
doing, essentially, creatively. And we want it to stand up on that merit before the
whole context and before the whole story. It's not that we want to shy away from it,
or that it's not there. But we, from talking to our artists and living and breathing it
every day, they're living and breathing their disability every day. And so to have to
lead with that constantly and talk about it, that's certainly not what our artists are
talking about in the studio.
So it's an interesting - and you hear stories about people not getting selected
for things. I mean, you know, those perceptions if it's made by somebody who hasn't
gone through an institution all of the time. So we do discuss and weigh that up
within the context of what we're doing, and we certainly think that the way that we
approach it, that the artwork is getting selected on the merit of the artwork before the
context of where it's come from is discussed; so, yes.
DAVID: I'm David. I'm an educator here at the Museum of Contemporary Art. I just
had a question in regards to this - I really wanted to hear what the panel thought of
the role of the facilitator within a supported studio structure.
And I guess my question is around interference and boundaries that are put in
place. For example, somebody that, you know, that might be a participant might
wake up and see the potential of creating something out of tooth paste whilst
brushing their teeth, and might spend the rest of the day creating sculptures out of
tooth paste. But then maybe when a support worker comes into the picture, it might
be - the first step might be going to the art shop and buying something that - like
clay, have you heard of clay, or archival paper, and how that interferes with the
authenticity of the work created and all of those dilemmas. Yes.
SUE: Can I start again? Well, that's interesting toothpaste idea. You know, we
very much from Arts Project, and the more supported studios we talked to are
coming from the perspective of supporting the artist in whatever their vision is for
creating artwork.
It so happens that at Arts Project we use all the best materials we possibly
can. It doesn't stop artists from bringing in materials and incorporating that into their
work, but we're very much of the philosophy of obviously hands off. There's
mentoring and facilitation. That's at as great a distance as it can be from the artist
realising what they want to create.
And I think you still see it - I've judged art competitions for people with
disability, and you see clearly in the work where the interference has come in. And it
just - I find it really frustrating that, you know, when you have - we've had people
come through that work with peak organisations with people with disability. And at
the end of a tour at Arts Project will still say, "But how do you get someone to paint a
19
www.stenocaptionsaustralia.com
denise.lamont@y7mail.com
tree that looks like a tree?" And it's like, "That's not the point, actually." But, I don't
know, I guess you just do the best you can, and be as flexible and open as possible.
DAMIEN: I've dropped back and day (inaudible) second year national arts school
where someone wants to paint with toothpaste and they go, "Try acrylic." You know,
it's the same sort of thing. It's training.
COLIN: Thanks. Colin Rhodes from Sydney College of the Arts, not a national art
school, just to mention another place.
I wanted to ask - I'm listening to some of this very interesting. It raises for me
another, I think, salient question about the supported studios, and there's this
fantastic network that's emerging. And that's at the very least dual role that the
studios are now kind of having to start to kind of face that they are inhabiting.
NEW SPEAKER: (Inaudible).
COLIN: And Damien kind of touched on this. And that's, on one level -NEW SPEAKER: (Inaudible).
COLIN: -- if you like, the original role, which was supporting people making art.
And now this other role, which is becoming increasingly important, and which in a
way is causing all the questions and the soul-searching and some of the
conversations we are having today, and that's how does the studio then act as agent
to get that art into the public space and, even worse -NEW SPEAKER: (Inaudible).
COLIN: -- which art does the studio try to get into the public space, and is it all that
art, is it all great? Is some of it good, is some of it not so good? You know, And I
think that dual thing seems to me a sort of a question that is kind of bubbling very
much at the end of this session that we have now.
FEMALE SPEAKER: I - it's probably a new thing for studios that are starting out,
who are younger, but I feel that's what Arts Project - like an organisation like Arts
Project has been doing for a long time. And I guess not all of the art is great. And
that can be a subjective thing. And if there's anyone - I mean, who better to make
that decision than the studios who know the artists well, and know the art well.
Like, I mean, I think it's partly a question about not getting too insular within
the studio, but also having a greater awareness of the art world and getting out and
seeing, and talking to galleries, and talking to curators, and inviting those people in
so that you have those checks and balances in terms of what you're seeing.
I don't think we're that far off what external curators coming in who have all of
that experience actually are also seeing. But it's a very important role that the
20
www.stenocaptionsaustralia.com
denise.lamont@y7mail.com
supported studio plays in representing the artists and representing - you know, we
always say we feel like we're getting closer to being able to have some kind of
formula or ways of practice to interact with whoever we're working with, but it's
always more complicated when you're dealing with artists with intellectual disability
because you're acting as their agent, you're storing their work, you have a huge
responsibility for those artists and their careers and pricing artworks a whole other
thing.
Because you're trying to balance a long career, which galleries are trying to
do for their artists too; but when it can be one of the only sources of income for your
artists, that's always important to balance. So it's a very important role. But I think
being open to having other people come in, so that, again, those checks and
balances with what's happening out there as well as in our studios is really, really
important.
EVAN: I think some practical answers to that might be, for instance, the supported
studios network should probably have a presence on the Australian Commercial
Galleries Association. And another one is there could probably be a website. You
know, we need to use the technology a little bit better to incorporate as many artists
from across the board, just to get better access for the general population.
But, I mean, I understand that running each studio is hard enough, without
having to - but, I mean, Australia Council is represented here. We need to talk to
government about how to sort of - you know, if there's one thing they can do, maybe
build us a big website that can be a portal.
LUCAS: So it's probably a good point to break for lunch. These questions are - you
know, I guess what's rising up here is the core questions that actually matter to
people in the room. And, as I mentioned before, there's a pink piece of A4 paper
with a series of questions that were put together for discussion later on this
afternoon, and you're invited to add any questions to that, if you think that there's
things that really need to be further fleshed out, and these are obviously some of the
things that are emerging here.
The other thing, just to finish that off - I'm sure Josie would be keen to point
out that there is a supported studio network website, which is - what's the web
address of that?
JOSIE: If you just google "supported studio network" it will be there. But it doesn't
have the portal. I think that's another conversation. Yes.
LUCAS: So we are going to go to lunch.
(Lunch Break)
21
www.stenocaptionsaustralia.com
denise.lamont@y7mail.com