‫בס''ד‬
Salting meat in a solid kli
Status of the meat
Shiur 11 – P. 86
Klipa above tzir
Two Questions
1.
2.
How much of the meat is assur?
How long until the meat is assur?
‫ציר‬
A: Part
above Tzir
B: When
1
Rabbeinu Peretz
Rabbeinu Tam (Prisha – 2)
Rama
Assur
When blood starts to
come out of meat
2
Rabbeinu Tam (Prisha – 1)
Mutar
When blood starts to
come out of meat
3
R’ Yehudah M’Bartzalona
(Mutar)
After shiur melicha
4
Rosh
Mutar
5
Mechaber
Klipa is
assur
V3
‫שיעור שיתנו מים על‬
‫האש ויתחילו להרתיח‬
Like the Rosh
© 2013 E. Horowitz
Salted meat in a
‫כלי שאינו מנוקב‬
(Shouldn’t do this)
C: S’vora
Why tzir ossurs meat
‫דם שפירש ממקום למקום‬
And blood won’t drain
Blood that comes out is driven back into
the meat by the tzir
‫איידי דטריד לפלוט לא בלע‬
Meat is pickled in its blood
• Blood spreads upwards a klipa (Shach)
• Can’t measure precisely (Minchas Yaakov)
68
‫בס''ד‬
Shiur 11 – P. 88
Chalita
Chalita
Place meat in boiling
water after salting
Rambam’s Opinion
A
B
C
Why does Rambam
require chalita?
When is chalita
required
Why salt?
Why not just do chalita?
1
Ran (Bais Yosef)
Salting does not remove
all of the blood.
Always
Surface of meat will become assur
before chalita starts to work
2
Aruch Hashulchan
Salting will pull out all
blood after 36 minutes
If meat salted less than
36 minutes
Salting does work after 36
minutes
Halacha L’Ma’aseh
1
Bais Yosef, Shach
Do it if possible (chumra)
2
Mechaber (Stam), Rama
Don’t need even with only 18 minutes of salting
3
Aruch Hashulchan
Don’t need if meat slated for one hour
V4
© 2013 E. Horowitz
69
‫בס''ד‬
Shiur 12 – P. 92
2. Did not do
hadacha achrona
Ma’aseh D’Rashi
CASE 1
1. Salted meat properly
2. Did not rinse meat
3. Placed in a ‫כלי שאינו מנוקב‬
4. Filled up with tzir
1. Salted meat
properly
3. Placed in a ‫כלי‬
‫שאינו מנוקב‬
4. Filled up
with tzir
CASE 2
1. Salted meat (B) properly
2. Placed in a ‫כלי שאינו מנוקב‬
3. Filled up with tzir
4. Removed meat (B)
5. Salted meat (A) properly
6. Placed in tzir of meat (B)
3. Filled up
with tzir
B
1. Salted meat
(B) properly
V2
B
2. Placed in a ‫כלי‬
‫שאינו מנוקב‬
B
4. Removed meat (B)
© 2013 E. Horowitz
A
6. Placed in tzir of
meat (B)
A
5. Salted meat
(A) properly
70
‫בס''ד‬
Opinions about
Ma’aseh D’Rashi
Shiur 12 – P. 92
Cases 1 and 2 on previous page
Status of meat
(And meat A in second case)
1
Mechaber
Mutar B'diavad
2
Yeish (Mechaber)
Assur
Mahol is like blood
3
Yeish (Rama)
Tosefos, Ra’aim
Assur klipa immediately
Mahol is hot (Shach)
4
Rama
Assur klipa that which is in tzir
5
V2
Mutar any part out of tzir
6
Rashi
Mutar
7
Rashal (Taz)
Part in tzir is assur if pickled
8
Rashal (Shach)
Mutar if meat in tzir is 60x tzir
9
Rashal (REA)
Assur klipa even if meat in tzir is 60x tzir
10
Rama (Shach)
Assur klipa no matter how long it stayed in tzir
© 2013 E. Horowitz
Tzir has blood
71
Other Cases of the
Mechaber
Shiur 12 – P. 93
If there is any
tzir, it is of no
concern at all.
‫כלי מנוקב‬
Case 1
‫כלי שאינו מנוקב‬
Salted meat
properly
Wash it well
Can now salt to
preserver it
Can roast immediately
after salting without
hadacha achrona.
‫כלי מנוקב‬
Case 2
‫בס''ד‬
Salted meat
properly
Roast meat
Salted meat
properly
Meat sat in salt
for some time
(problem)
‫כלי מנוקב‬
Case 3
Wash it well
Roast meat
Fix for problem
V3
© 2013 E. Horowitz
72
‫בס''ד‬
Roasting Instead of
Salting
Shiur 12 – P. 93
How long do you have to roast it?
V3
1
Mechaber
Until all of the blood has flowed out
2
Ran (Rashal (Taz))
Tur
C’Machal Ben Drusoi (MBZ = ½ cooked)
3
Rashba (Taz)
Ohr Zaruah
Taz
Fit for most people to eat
4
Sha’arai Dura (Taz)
Taz – Roi L’Nahug
MBZ – L'chatchila
Most women cook until outside is dry
© 2013 E. Horowitz
73
‫בס''ד‬
Shiur 12 – P. 93
A Closer Look at Case 1
Ma’ase D’Rashi
Did not do
hadacha
achrona
Problem 2:
Does tzir cause blood on
surface get reabsorbed?
Salted meat
properly
Problem 1:
Does tzir contain blood
that will be reabsorbed?
Answer to questions
1. Rashi
• After shiur melicha
• Tzir is only mohel
• Has no blood.
Why doesn’t tzir drive blood back into meat?
2. Rashi (Tosefos)
• Mohel is no different than water
• Can soak meat in water after salting
• So too, can soak meat in mohel
after salting
‫מה לי מים מה לי מוהל‬
V2
1
Tosefos
Surface blood is dried up after salting
2
Rosh
Salt is now weakened
3
Bach
Mohel dissolves salt like water does
© 2013 E. Horowitz
74
‫בס''ד‬
Shiur 12 – P. 95
Treif Duck atop Other Meat
Case 1 – Duck on Meat
Case 2 – Bird Falls into Kutach
Did not do hadacha achrona
1. Salted duck
2. Placed on other meat
3. Notices duck is treif
Main question – is salt still hot?
All hold this is assur
Salty kutach cooks bird with food
Salt stays hot since not drawing out blood
Note - this bird is not treif
Case 1
Status of other meat
S’vora
1
Rosh, Smag (Taz)
Mutar
Tzir not hot after melicha
2
Trumas
Hadeshen
Mutar in hefsed m’rubeh and
seudas mitzvah
Only in a hefsed since Smak (Taz)
holds salt is still hot after melicha.
V2
© 2013 E. Horowitz
75
‫בס''ד‬
Shiur 12 – P. 96
Status of Kli
1. Salted meat
properly
2. Did not do
hadacha
achrona 3. Placed in a ‫כלי‬
‫שאינו מנוקב‬
4. Filled up
with tzir
Case
Kli
1
Rama
Any Kli
Assur
2
Rama (Shach)
Other than cheres
Assur Klipa
Kli Cheres
Kli where klipa can’t be removed
Assur
3
4
Minchas Ya’akov
(Sifsai Da’as)
Any Kli
Assur Klipa
5
Shach (Sifsai Da’as)
Fell outside of kli cheres
Assur Klipa
V2
© 2013 E. Horowitz
Melicha only ossurs k’dai klipa
76
‫בס''ד‬
Shiur 12 – P. 96
Milk Kli
1. Salted meat
properly
2. Did not do
hadacha
achrona 3. Placed in a ‫כלי‬
‫שאינו מנוקב‬
4. Filled up
with tzir
Milk pot
Milk residue
V4
Case
Meat
1 Rama
Milk pot w/ milk residue
Assur
2 Taz
Clean milk pot
Assur
Nekudas Hakesef : Question: ‫אין מליחה בכלים‬
Chavas Da’as: Answer:
• Salt will not remove blood blios from kli
• Salt will remove milk blios from a kli
3 Chavas Da’as
Clean milk pot
Mutar
Salt will not take out milk blios from kli
4 Rama
(Shach)
Milk pot w/ milk residue
Mutar b’hefsed
m’rubeh &
seudas mitzvah
Like the Trumas Hadeshen
(see kutach case above)
© 2013 E. Horowitz
77
Shiur 12 – P. 97
‫בס''ד‬
Washing the Meat
Mechaber:
According to this even though the meat was salted for “shiur
melicha” it is assur to eat it until it is washed “yafa yafa”
Question
Why only “According to this” (i.e., only those who disagree
with Rashi)? Everyone holds that we need hadacha achrona?
Possible Answers – Those who disagree with Rashi will say…
1
Shach (1)
• Tzir is not like water.
• Tzir has blood and is hot.
• Once tzir done coming out, it will push blood back into meat.
• Must wash before all tzir comes out.
2
Shach (2)
• Even if you remove klippa of meat, still must wash meat since the additional tzir that comes
out still contains blood.
• Washing will close up the nikvei plaita and stop the tzir from coming out.
3
Taz
• According to Rashi, you don’t have to do hadacha achrona right away.
• You can put it in a kli sh’aino m’nukav and wash it later.
• Others hold you can not put meat in a kli until it is washed.
• Forced answer. Not evident from text of Mechaber.
V3
© 2013 E. Horowitz
78
‫בס''ד‬
Shiur 12 – P. 97
Status of knife if meat cut
before hadacha achrona
2. Did not do hadacha
achrona
3. Cut the meat
1. Salted meat
properly
Status of knife
V3
1
Yaish (Mechaber)
Needs Hagala
2
Bach
Needs Hagala
3
Rashi (Bais Yosef)
Knife OK b’diavad
4
Not like Rashi (Bais Yosef)
Need Hagala
5
Mechaber (Shach)
Sephardim
Knife OK b’diavad
6
Rama
Ashkenazim
Can cut with knife
l’chatchila
Knife not in contact with meat for a long
period of time. (Nekudas Hakesef)
7
Taz
Knife OK b’diavad
Even before shiur melicha
Surface salt is hot (even according to Rashi)
Because tzir has blood
© 2013 E. Horowitz
79
Salting Stacks of Meat
Mechaber –
Pocket of blood
does not ossur
meat.
RAMA – turn
over meat to
empty
Shiur 13 – P. 101
Salting ALL
pieces
‫בס''ד‬
Salting ALL
pieces
Meat with
chicken ok too
Blood from top piece will
not ossur bottom piece as
long as tzir is coming out
of bottom piece.
2. Then tzir without
blood comes out
1. First tzir with
blood comes out
Salting meat
& Fish
Salting meat
& Fish
Fish without scales
Mechaber: Fish assur k’dai klipah, meat is mutar
RAMA: Fish needs 60x meat
V3
Fish with scales
Fish mutar
NOTE: Top pieces must be placed prior to shiur melicha of bottom pieces
Cf. 70:6, Shiur 16, (PMG: Case 1, Stage 4)
© 2013 E. Horowitz
80
Mechanisms for Blood
Flowing Over Meat
‫בס''ד‬
Shiur 13 – P. 102
Blood from an upper
piece of meat flowing
over a lower piece of
meat
‫דם‬
‫ציר‬
‫נקבי‬
‫פליטה‬
A
B
C
D
E
Rabbosav of the Rashba
‫ר''ת‬
R”Y M’Orleans
‫יש מפרשים‬
'‫תוס‬
1
‫שיטא‬
Salt alone removes
absorbed blood from meat
2
‫עיקר‬
‫מלח‬
3
Remove bottom before
shiur melicha of top
Can always resalt
4
‫מישרק‬
‫שריק‬
‫נקבי פליטה‬
‫איידי דיפלוט ציר‬
*‫יפלוט מה שבלע‬
‫איידי דטריד ליפלוט‬
‫ציר לא בלע‬
‫דם‬
‫בשר‬
‫ציר‬
‫ציר‬
Mutar
Assur
Assur
Mutar
Blood in pockets
Assur
Mutar
Mutar
5
Falls into tzir
Assur
Mutar?
Mutar
Assur?
6
Bottom after 24 hours
Mutar
Mutar
Assur
Assur?
7
Bottom washed early
Mutar
Assur?
Mutar
Assur
‫*כבולעו כך פולטו‬
81
‫בס''ד‬
Shiur 13 – P. 102
Waiting for Top Piece
Example of why bottom piece must stay on rack for shiur of the upper piece according to
yeish m’forshim who say that blood of upper piece is absorbed in bottom piece and then
Expelled by tzir of bottom piece AND according to R”Y M’Orleans.
A
B
1:00
Start salting
bottom piece
C
D
1:10
Meat
expelling
blood
Start salting
top piece
E
F
1:18
Both pieces
expelling blood
Bottom piece
absorbing blood
from top and
expelling it.
Bottom piece has
no more of its
own blood. Still
has absorbed
blood from top
piece.
© 2013 E. Horowitz
G
1:28
Top piece expelling
blood which is
absorbed into
bottom piece.
Bottom piece
expelling tzir AND
blood from top piece
Both pieces
expelling only
tzir.
82
‫בס''ד‬
Shiur 13
‫כבולעו כך פולטו‬
Kelim
Translation:
Context:
Sequence:
Beware
Beware the
the Double
Double Entendre
Entendre
The way it absorbed (issur blios) is the way it will expel (them)
Kashering dishes
First absorbed then expeled
Issur
absorbed
into walls
Melicha
Translation:
Context:
Sequence:
V2
Blios removed by same
mechanism by which they
were absorbed
(Blood) that is absorbed will be expelled (with tzir from the meat)
Salting multiple pieces of meat together
Absorbed and expelled simultaneously
© 2013 E. Horowitz
83
Shiur 13 – P. 104
‫בס''ד‬
Mechanisms for Blood Flowing
Over Meat - Psak
Achronim
Rishonim
Mechanism
‫איידי דטריד ליפלוט ציר לא בלע‬
1 Mechaber
Rama (Shach, Chavas
Da’as)
Tosefos
2 Mechaber (b’diavad)
Rabbosav of the Rashba
Salt always absorbed blood even without tzir
‫יש מפרשים‬
‫איידי דיפלוט ציר יפלוט מה שבלע‬
3 Rama (Taz)
‫איידי דטריד ליפלוט דם לא בלע‬
4 Everyone (Pri Megadim,
Chavas Da’as)
5 Rama (turn over meat)
V3
Yereim (IV”H)
© 2013 E. Horowitz
Use ‫ כבולו כך פוךתן‬only b’diavad
84
‫בס''ד‬
Shiur 13 – P. 105
Salting a Second Time
Question: Since Rama holds salt drives blood into meat, why can meat
be salted a second time before washing off the first salt? Won’t the
second salt drive in the blood removed by the first salt?
Salted meat a second
time without removing
original salt or blood
Psak
S’Vora
1
Rama
Mutar
• Second salt does not drive blood back into meat.
2
Rama ((Taz) MBZ)
Mutar
• Combination of
• ‫ איידי דטריד ליפלוט ציר לא בלע‬and
• The Rosh holds that salt does not drive blood into meat
• Not ‫( איידי דיפלוט‬which is how the Taz holds) because then simply
washing would not be enough.
3
Rama ((Taz)
Chavas Da’as)
Mutar
• All Rishonim hold that salt will not push in blood and pull it out at the
same time
V2
© 2013 E. Horowitz
85
‫בס''ד‬
Salting a Second Time
after 24 hours
Shiur 13 – P. 106
24 Hours
V2
Psak
S’Vora
Salted meat a second
time without removing
original salt or blood
1
Rosh (Taz)
Mutar
• Salt never drives blood into meat
2
Other Rishonim
Assur
• Salt will drive blood into meat.
3
Rosh (Chavas Da’as)
Assur
• Heat of salt should still cook blood back into meat
© 2013 E. Horowitz
86
‫בס''ד‬
Salting a Second Time
Compared to Salting
without Hadacha
Rishona
Shiur 13 – P. 106
Salted meat a second
time without removing
original salt or blood
(70:1) Mutar
(69:2) Assur
Salt meat without
hadacha rishona
69:2 Assur
70:1 Mutar
1 Rama
(Shach – 1 )
Sifsai Da’as
Dom B’ain
Dam Plaita (even after 24 hours)
2 Rama
(Shach – 2 )
No tzir is coming out when salt is
applied
Tzir is coming out when second salt is
applied (not after 24 hours)
3 Rama
(Minchas Yaakov)
Lots of blood – No mishrak sharik
Minimal blood – mishrak sharik
V2
© 2013 E. Horowitz
87
‫בס''ד‬
Different cases of fish
and chicken.
Shiur 14 – P. 109
There - 70:1
Here - 70:2
70:1 dealt with salty chicken where fish may or may not have been
salted. There it made a difference if the fish had scales or not.
Mechaber: Here, fish is salty and chicken
is not. Fish is mutar.
Salt
together
Rama: Blood does not spread upwards.
Fish is mutar.
Rama: Salted together after chicken was
already salted shiur melicha, fish is mutar.
© 2013 E. Horowitz
88
‫בס''ד‬
Continuation of
previous shiur
We brought several opinions as
to why blood from a top piece
does no ossur piece below.
blood
Shiur 14
There reasons do not apply to
tzir, but tzir is mutar anyway
(‫)מה לי מים מה לי מוהל‬
kosher tzir
© 2013 E. Horowitz
These reasons do not apply to
treif tzir, AND treif tzir will make
other pieces assur.
non-kosher tzir
89
‫בס''ד‬
Shiur 14 – P. 110
Fish
Chicken
Rashi
Assur
Mutar
Rashbam
Rosh (Tur)
Assur
Assur
Mechaber
Assur Klipa
Mutar
Rama
Assur
Salt
together
Chicken blood
Questions
1. Why does the Rashbam hold the chicken assur?
2. Why does the Tur say the Rosh holds like the Rashbam?
Fish tzir containing chicken blood
Step
Stage
Who
What
Why
1
Assur
Rashbam
Chicken is also assur
•Returning fish tzir is treif with chicken blood
•Fish tzir will be absorbed by chicken
2
Mutar?
Rosh (BY)
Not much chicken blood in tzir
Ch’n’n only by BBCH (R’ Ephraim)
Tzir can’t treif chicken
Can’t assur farther than blood
3
Assur
Rosh (BY)
Some chicken blood will come out with fish tzir
4
Mutar?
Rosh (BY)
Blood won’t reenter chicken
‫משרק שריק‬
5
Assur
Rosh (BY)
Blood will reenter chicken
Fish tzir thins blood
6
Mutar?
Beis Yosef
Still not enough blood to assur chicken. Why
does Tur say Rosh is like Rashbam?
Rosh holds like R’ Ephraim
7
Assur
Bach
Tur holds enough blood will come out to assur
chicken
© 2013 E. Horowitz
90
‫בס''ד‬
Fish Salted on top
of Chicken
Shiur 14 – P. 112
Klipa above tzir
69:18
70:2
Salt together
Salted meat in a
‫כלי שאינו מנוקב‬
(Shouldn’t do this) ‫ציר‬
Fish on top
Basic Reason
Meat in Tzir
Fish over Chicken
1
Shach
Blood flows upwards a klipa
Assur Klipa
Assur Klipa
Blood will flow up into fish
2
Minchas Yaakov
(Sifsai Da’as)
Can’t be exact
Assur Klipa
Simply rinse
Can precisely find division
between chicken and fish
© 2013 E. Horowitz
91
‫בס''ד‬
First salt only
chicken and not
fish
Shiur 14 – P. 112
First salt
ONLY
chicken
Then salt
fish
Does absorbed chicken
blood come out with
fish tzir?
Chicken
blood
absorbed in
fish
Fish
1
Mechaber
Yalkut Yosef
Kaf Hachaim
Mshb’tzos Zahav
Assur Klipa
2
Rama
Mutar
Chicken blood will come out with fish tzir
3
Taz
Assur
1. Blood makes fish assur (efshar l’schoto assur?)
2. Fish blood is thin and cannot pull out chicken blood
3. Fish tzir comes out for less than 18 minutes. No more left while fish is still
expelling chicken blood
4. Chicken blood gets stuck in fish meat
4
Shach
Chachmas Adam
Mutar B’hefsed M’rubeh
V2
© 2013 E. Horowitz
92
‫בס''ד‬
Shiur 15 – P. 116
Cases brought by
the Mechaber and
the Rama
1
Salted
Type
Proximity
Who
Kosher Meat
treif
Both
Both lean
Either one on
top
Mechaber
Assur klipa
treif
Treif
Both lean
Either one on
top
Mechaber
Assur klipa
Mechaber
Just wash
Both lean
Either one on
top
Yeish (Ran)
Assur klipa
Both lean
Tzir from
kosher
reaches treif
Yeish (Ran)
Just wash
Treif
Both lean
Tzir from treif
reaches
kosher
Rama
Assur
Treif
Either one
fatty
Treif on
bottom
Mechaber
Assur
kosher
2
kosher
treif
3
Kosher
kosher
4
5
kosher
treif
Kosher
kosher tzir
treif
kosher
treif tzir
kosher
kosher
6
treif
treif
© 2013 E. Horowitz
93
‫בס''ד‬
Chullin 112B
Kosher and Treif
Salted Together
Shiur 15 – P. 117
Rava says meat is assur, but Tosefta seems to say otherwise.
kosher
treif
A
B
C
D
E
F
G
Case
Statement of Tosefta
Kosher
Fish
Tamei Fish
Current
Case
Stage of argument
Kosher Fish & Treif
Fish both salted
1
Kosher fish salted with
tamei fish is mutar*
Salted
Salted
Mutar
a
Initial Assumption
Mutar
Salted
Not Salted
b
Second interpretation
Assur
Kosher salted, tamei
not salted , kosher is
mutar
Salted
Not Salted
a
Different than case 1
Mutar
b
Explanation of case 1
Assur
c
Maybe contrast of case 1
Inconclusive
a
Implies salted-salted OK
Mutar
b
Maybe uses this case to parallel
case 2, but salted-salted also assur
Inconclusive
2
3
Kosher not salted,
tamei salted, kosher
assur
Part of this argument uses a
common Talmudic logical
pattern. The Tosefta gives
two extremes, each of
which leads to a different
inference about the middle
case.
Not Salted
Salted
kosher
2b
* Argument hinges on clarifying this statement.
treif
Mutar
Mutar
Assur

kosher
Assur
© 2013 E. Horowitz
treif
Mutar

kosher
Assur
treif
3a
94
Case 1
Both Kosher and
Treif Salted
‫בס''ד‬
Shiur 15 – P. 118
treif
treif
kosher
Ravan (Mordechai (Bach))
Kosher meat absorbs
nothing during shiur melicha
kosher
Ravyah (Mordechai (Bach))
Blood coming out of kosher meat will
not stop treif tzir from coming in.
Mechaber holds this way and thus
kosher meat is assur a klipa.
© 2013 E. Horowitz
95
‫בס''ד‬
Case 2
Only Kosher Salted
Shiur 15 – P. 118
treif
treif
Main question
Does the heat of the salted
meat heat up the treif meat
enough to cause the treif meat
to give off tzir?
kosher
A
kosher
B
C
D
Opinion
Kosher piece
S'vora
1
Gemorah
Mutar
2
Rashba (MBZ)
Bais Yosef (MBZ)
Mutar
• Kosher piece heats up treif piece
• Treif piece gives off little bit of tzir
• Kosher tzir deflects it
3
Rashba (MBZ)
Mutar
• Kosher piece does not heat up treif piece
• No tzir comes out of treif piece
4
Ran
Assur Klipa
• Kosher piece heats up treif piece
• Treif piece gives off enough tzir to ossur kosher piece
5
Rama (Shach)
Mutar in hefsed
m’rubeh
6
Rama (RAE)
Mutar in small
loss
7
Shach, Marshal, Levush,
Toras Chatas
Mutar
© 2013 E. Horowitz
kosher tzir
In a case where kosher
tzir reaches treif piece
but pieces don’t
touch, everyone
agrees that kosher
piece is mutar.
96
Case 2
Meat in Salty Milk
‫בס''ד‬
Shiur 15 – P. 119
Salty milk
According to the first reason of the Rashba
• Something salty does heat up something not salty
• Salty milk will enter meat and
• Salty milk will heat up meat and cause tzir to go back into milk
• Both are assur
• Different than kosher/treif meat case because
• There, the tzir of the kosher meat repels the treif tzir
• Here, nothing repels the tzir of the meat
© 2013 E. Horowitz
97
Case 3
Only Treif is Salted
‫בס''ד‬
Shiur 15 – P. 119
treif
kosher
treif
kosher
treif tzir
Trief meat is hot enough to
ossur kosher meat.
Trief tzir is also hot enough to ossur
kosher meat,
Explicit in the Mechaber
After shiur melicha, can be maikil
in a hefsed m’rubeh and a seudas
mitzvah.
Explicit in the Rama
Shach: Everyone holds this
© 2013 E. Horowitz
98
‫בס''ד‬
Shiur 15 – P. 120
This diagram is from
Ta’aruvos, Shiur 20.
In the case where the issur
is fatty, can we combine all
of the heter to get 60x the
issur?
HETER
HETER
ISSUR
HETER
HETER
Status of Kosher Pieces
S’vorah
Rambam, Ramban
All pieces assur
Issur wont spread evenly
Rashba, Ran, Ra’ah, Rosh, Tur
All pieces mutar if, in all, they are 60x issur
Issur will spread evenly
Rava said meat was assur. How much of the meat was assur?
Who
Case
How Much
1
Rov poskim
Lean meat
Klipa
2
Rov Poskim
Fatty meat
All assur (up to 60x issur)
3
Rambam
Lean meat
All assur (up to 60x issur)
© 2013 E. Horowitz
99
Lean Meat
Shiur 15 – P. 120
A
B
Side by Side
C
Treif on Top
Kosher on Top
‫בס''ד‬
Rama
Need 60x in all
cases (except
bottom row?)
Aruch Hashulchan
1
kosher
treif
treif
kosher
treif
kosher
2
kosher
treif
treif
Treif Salted
Assur Klipa
kosher
treif
kosher
3
kosher
treif
treif
Both Salted
Assur Klipa
kosher
Kosher Salted
Simply Rinse
treif
kosher
© 2013 E. Horowitz
100
At Least One Piece
is Fatty
Shiur 15 – P. 120
A
B
Side by Side
C
Treif on Top
Kosher on Top
Assur
kosher
treif
treif
kosher
treif
kosher
Assur Klipa
2
Assur Klipa
Assur
kosher
Both Salted
Treif Salted
treif
kosher
Rinse
3
Rama
Need 60x in all
cases (except
bottom row?)
kosher
treif
treif
Aruch Hashulchan
Assur
Assur
1
‫בס''ד‬
Rinse
Rinse
kosher
treif
treif
Kosher Salted
kosher
treif
kosher
© 2013 E. Horowitz
101
‫בס''ד‬
Shiur 16 – P. 124
•After 12 hours tzir is done coming out
12 Hours
V2
1
Yeish -1 (Mechaber)
Assur
Blood and salt on surface reabsorbed into meat
2
Yeish -2 (Mechaber)
Mutar
Even after several days
3
Mechaber
Mutar B'diavad
4
Tosefos (Rashba(Tur))
Assur klipa
Salt will drive expelled blood back into meat
5
Rosh (Tur)
Mutar
•Blood dried up
•Salt no longer hot
6
Everyone (Shach)
Mutar
• All blood slipped off
• Surface liquid is only mohel
• Salt no longer hot
© 2014 E. Horowitz
102
Shiur 16 – P. 124
Dam
B’ain
‫בס''ד‬
Rama
• Dam B’ain falls on meat being salted
• Salted meat is hot
• Meat is assur
Mechaber: “or meat that had been salted and has no blood in it”
Shach: Two explanations of the Ran
1.
V2
Toras Chatas
2.
•
Salted for 18 minutes
•
Blood gone
•
Tzir still coming out
•
Washed
•
Nikvei plaita closed
•
Absorbed blood won’t come back out © 2014 E. Horowitz
Maharshal, Drisha
•
Salted for 12 hours
•
Blood and tzir is gone
•
Nothing to pull absorbed blood out
103
‫בס''ד‬
Case 1 – Meat at various stages
touches other meat that is being
salted (Stage 3)
Other meat (b)
Stage 4
Expelling ‫ציר‬
Stage 5
Expelling
minimal ‫ציר‬
24
hours
Other
piece
12 hours
Stage 3
Shiur Melicha
Expelling ‫דם‬
‫שיעור מליחה‬
Stage 2
Washed
Not Salted
‫מליחה‬
Stage 1
Not Washed
‫הדחה ראשונה‬
‫שחיטה‬
Shiur 16
Stage 6
No longer
expelling ‫ציר‬
Our meat
(a)
‫מותר‬
Yeish (Ran) osrim
‫ –מחבר‬l’chatchila
‫ –מחבר‬Yeish 1 - matirin to salt
R Yonah,
Rashba (Shach, Taz, Pri Chadash)
Rabosav of Rashba (Aruch Hashulchan)
‫ מחבר‬- Yeish 2 - matirin in all cases
R’ Tam (Aruch Hashchan, Biur Hagra )
‫ מותר‬- ‫רמ''א‬
‫ש''כ‬
V2
If meat touches one
other piece –
‫מותר בדעבד‬
If meat fell into
several pieces –
‫מותר בהפסד מרובה‬
This is the simple case
of many pieces being
salted together
discussed in Shiur 13.
It is mutar based on
the four opinions
discussed there.
‫ מותר‬- ‫רמ''א‬
‫מותר‬
‫כבולעה כך‬
‫פולטו‬
© 2014 E. Horowitz
‫מותר‬
‫רמ''א‬
)‫רמ''א (ט''ז‬
Wash and resalt
‫כבולעה כך פולטו‬
‫מותר – איידי‬:‫ש''כ‬
‫דטריד לפלוט לא בלע‬
R’ Yonah (RAE, MBZ) ‫איידי‬
‫ דטריד‬only by blood, not
tzir – meat assur.
Rabosav of Rashba (MBZ).
Salting always works.
Resalt meat.
Taz: If washed meat
‫תורת חטאת‬, R’ Yonah,
Maharshal, Shach
Nikvai plaita will close.
Meat is assur.
Rabosav of Rashba
Nikvai plaita stay open.
Meat mutar
Yeish osrim (Ran)
‫ מחבר‬- l’chatchila
‫מחבר‬- Yeish 1 - matirin to resalt
Rabosav of Rashba (Aruch Hashulchan)
‫ מחבר‬- Yeish 2 - matirin in all cases
Rabosav of Rashba (Shach, Taz, Pri Chadash)
to resalt
R’ Tam (Aruch Hashchan , Biur Hagra)
‫ש''כ – מותר בהפסד‬, ‫רמ''א‬
‫מרובה‬
– ‫ רשא''ל‬,‫רמ''א‬
‫אסור אפילו בצלי‬
‫רשא''ל – מותר בדעבד‬
104
‫בס''ד‬
‫‪Shiur 16‬‬
‫ציר‬
‫‪24 hours‬‬
‫‪12 hours‬‬
‫רש''ל‪ :‬אסור‬
‫רמ''א‬
‫אסור מיד‬
‫בהפסד מרובה –‬
‫‪wash & resalt‬‬
‫רש''ל(ש''כ ‪,‬ט''ז)‪:‬‬
‫אסור בקליפה‬
‫רש''ל‪ ,‬רמ''א‪ :‬אסור‬
‫ש''כ (פ''מ)‪:‬‬
‫‪Ok in great need‬‬
‫רמ''א (ש''כ ‪Tzir is weak. Wash & resalt up to 24 hours )2‬‬
‫‪Pri Chadash‬‬
‫‪Sifsai Da’as – Hefsed M’rubeh‬‬
‫רמ''א (ט''ז) ט''ז‪:‬‬
‫אסור‬
‫רש''ל‪resalt :‬‬
‫רמ''א (ט''ז)‪ :‬אסור‬
‫רש''ל‪resalt :‬‬
‫פרי מגדים‪:‬‬
‫מותר לכבוד‬
‫ארחים‬
‫דגול מרבבה‪:‬‬
‫מותר בהפסד‬
‫מרובה‬
‫‪© 2014 E. Horowitz‬‬
‫כבוש כמבושל‬
‫‪Longer than‬‬
‫שעור כיבוש‬
‫ט''ז (פ''מ)‪ :‬אסור‬
‫‪105‬‬
‫שיעור מליחה‬
‫ט''ז‪:‬‬
‫הפסד מרובה ‪resalt in‬‬
‫מליחה‬
‫רש''ל‪ :‬אסור בקליפה‬
‫הדחה ראשונה‬
‫רש''ל‪ :‬אסור בקליפה‬
‫מחבר ‪,‬ר''מא‬
‫)שפתי דעת)‬
‫רש''ל‬
‫מותר‬
‫מליחה כצלי‬
‫‪Less than‬‬
‫שעור כיבוש‬
‫רמ''א‪ :‬אסור מיד‬
‫רמ''א‪ ,‬ש''כ‪,‬‬
‫ט''ז(ש''ד) ש''ד ‪:‬‬
‫אסור מיד‬
‫‪Stage 2‬‬
‫‪Washed‬‬
‫‪Not Salted‬‬
‫‪Stage 1‬‬
‫‪Not Washed‬‬
‫שחיטה‬
‫‪Stage 6‬‬
‫‪No longer‬‬
‫ציר ‪expelling‬‬
‫‪Stage 5‬‬
‫‪Expelling‬‬
‫ציר ‪minimal‬‬
‫‪Stage 4‬‬
‫ציר ‪Expelling‬‬
‫‪Stage 3‬‬
‫‪Shiur Melicha‬‬
‫דם ‪Expelling‬‬
‫‪Case 2 – Meat at various‬‬
‫‪ in a‬ציר ‪stages falls into‬‬
‫‪.‬כלי מנוקב‬
‫‪V4‬‬
‫מליחה כצלי‬
Less than
‫שעור כיבוש‬
Stage 1
Not Washed
‫ר''מא‬, ‫מחבר‬
)‫)שפתי דעת‬
‫ ש''כ‬,‫ט''ז‬
‫מותר‬
‫מותר‬
Stage 3
Shiur Melicha
Expelling ‫דם‬
If meat didn’t touch
bottom
:‫חוות דעת‬
Meat in ‫ ציר‬is ‫אסור‬
‫כבוש כמבושל‬
Longer than
‫שעור כיבוש‬
Assur ‫ רע''א‬,‫ט''ז‬, )‫ט''ז‬, 2 ‫רמ''א (ש''כ‬
Wash & salt (up to 24 hours) ‫) איידי דיפלוט‬1 ‫רמ''א (ש''כ‬
Minchas Yaakov (Pri Megadim) ,)‫רש''ל )ט''ז‬
V3
‫ אסור‬:‫פרי מגדים‬
But not worse
than stage 1
:‫חוות דעת‬
Like ‫רש''ל‬
‫ © בהפסד מרובה‬2014 E. Horowitz
24 hours
Bloody
‫ציר‬
12 hours
‫שיעור מליחה‬
‫מליחה‬
Stage 2
Washed
Not Salted
See Shiur 11 if meat
touched bottom
, ‫פרי מגדים‬
: ‫חוות דעת‬
hefsed m’rubeh –
not real dam b’ain
‫בס''ד‬
Shiur 16
‫הדחה ראשונה‬
‫שחיטה‬
Case 3 – Meat at
various stages falls
into ‫ ציר‬in a ‫כלי שאינו‬
‫מנוקב‬.
Stage 5
Expelling
minimal ‫ציר‬
Stage 4
Expelling ‫ציר‬
*
‫רמ''א‬
‫אסור מיד‬
– ‫בהפסד מרובה‬
wash & resalt
:)‫ט''ז‬, ‫רש''ל(ש''כ‬
‫אסור בקליפה‬
(2 ‫רמ''א )ש''כ‬
Up to 24 hr
– ‫בהפסד מרובה‬
wash & resalt
*
,‫ ש''כ‬,‫רמ''א‬
: ‫ט''ז(ש''ד) ש''ד‬
‫אסור מיד‬
Stage 6
No longer
expelling ‫ציר‬
*
‫ אסור מיד‬:‫רמ''א‬
‫ אסור בקליפה‬:‫רש''ל‬
‫ אסור בקליפה‬:‫רש''ל‬
:‫ט''ז‬
resalt in ‫הפסד מרובה‬
*
‫ אסור‬:‫רש''ל‬
Assur )2 ‫רמ''א (ש''כ‬
pickled
‫ אסור‬:‫רש''ל‬
* Same as Case 2
106
Three cases of the
Rama as explained by
the Shach (40).
‫בס''ד‬
Shiur 18 – P. 143
‫ציר‬
rack
A
Case
B
‫כלי מנוקב‬
‫כלי מנוקב שאין מקום לזוב‬
C
‫כלי שאינו מנוקב‬
Source
Rama – 70:6
Toras Chatas – 7:2
Rama – 69:18
Halacha
Wash & Salt
Above tzir is mutar
All assur
Note that in case B, the rack is considered a ‫ כלי מנוקב‬even
though it is sitting in a ‫כלי שאינו מנוקב‬
V2
© 2014 E. Horowitz
107
‫בס''ד‬
Regions of interest in
sheep head
Shiur 19 - Intro
Issues
Salting
hair
Skull restricts
blood flow
Krum restricts
blood flow
Krum has
many veins
1. Hair (wool)
2. Hide
Brain has lots
of blood
3. ‫בשר‬
4. Skull
5. ‫קרום‬
6. Brain
7. ‫בית השחיטה‬
V2
© 2014 E. Horowitz
108
‫בס''ד‬
Preparing the head for
salting
Shiur 19 – P.149
A
B
Splitting Head
Salting on Hair
1
Rashba
says
Must split the head
OK to salt on the hair
2
Bais Yosef
asks
If salt works on hair why split
head? Head salted on both
sides.
Why do we care if salt works on hair?
Head is salted on one side anyway.
Rashba holds we can salt one side.
3
Bais Yosef
answers
Skull and krum trap blood in
brain
One side is b’diavad. This is l’chatchila.
A
B
C
Split Head
Puncture Krum
S’vora
1 Taz, Shach
Preferred
OK
2 Mishb'tzos Zahav (1)
Preferred
OK
Have to make sure hole faces
down during salting.
3 Mishb'tzos Zahav (2)
Preferred
OK
Salting through hair doesn’t work
fully. MBZ prefers first answer.
4 Tshuvas Bais Yaakov
(Pischei T’shuva)
Required
No Good
With spaces in the head only
salted on one side. Pischei
T’shuva rejects this.
© 2014 E. Horowitz
109
‫בס''ד‬
Salting hooves
Shiur 19 – P. 150
Salted foot with hoof attached
A
V2
B
C
D
E
Status of Hoof
Meat in hoof
Rest of foot
Position
1
Mechaber
Kli Menukav
Mutar
Mutar
2
Rama
Kli She’aino Menukav
Assur
Mutar
3
Shach
Kli She’aino Menukav
Assur
Mutar
Even upright
4
Others (Shach)
Kli She’aino Menukav
Assur
Mutar
Only on side
5
Others (Shach)
Kli She’aino Menukav
Assur
Assur
Upright
© 2014 E. Horowitz
110
‫בס''ד‬
Shiur 19 – P. 150
Brains
Stira in the Rama
1
Mechaber 71:1
2
Mechaber 71:3
3
Rama 71:3
4
Rama 68:4
A
B
C
Remove Brain
Split Head
Puncture Krum


1
2

2 rows
B’diavad (implied)
L'chatchila
B’diavad
Assur? (implied)
Skull is not kli
sheaino menukav
Resolutions
B’diavad in both
cases
A
B
C
Rama 68:4
Rama 71:3
1
Shach
Meat not cooked
Meat Cooked
If not cooked, then split head. If already
cooked then it is OK.
2
Minchas Yaakov
Split & upside
down ok
Punctured and
hole down ok
Don’t consider skull to be kli sheaino
menukav.
1
3
Yad Yehudah
Brain not
separate piece
If head is split, might think that we are salting
head on one side and brain on one side
2
© 2014 E. Horowitz
111
‫בס''ד‬
Salting with no hole
Shiur 19 – P. 151
Salt entire head with no hole
• Brain assur
• Meat mutar
Why meat is mutar
V2
1
Shach – 1
Sifsai Da’as
Ran (Sifsai Da’as)
Skull keeps brain blood in
2
Shach – 2
Mata Yehonasan
Skull keeps most of brain blood
in
3
Rosh (Sifsai Da’as)
Krum keeps brain blood in
© 2014 E. Horowitz
112
‫בס''ד‬
Salting bones
Shiur 19 – P. 152
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
Bones with marrow need to be salted
Bone marrow has a small amount of blood
Bones without marrow do not need to be salted
Bones do not need to be punctured before salting
Cooked, unsalted bone is mutar with 60x the marrow
• Then even the marrow is mutar
• Since it has so little blood
Unsalted
bone
Marrow
© 2014 E. Horowitz
113
Types of blood in the
heart
Juggler vein
‫בס''ד‬
3C
Shiur 20 – P. 155
Sheep Heart2
7E
7B
3D, 7D
A
B
C
D
E
Blood Typically in
Cavities
Blood Drawn
into Cavities1
Blood in
Meat
Blood seeping from
meat into heart
Rav (R’ Zeira)
Braisa
1 Rashi
Who
2
Term
‫דם דאתי מעלמא‬
‫דם דיליה‬
3
Type
‫דם הנפש‬
‫דם איברים‬
4
Law
‫כרת‬
‫לאו‬
5 Rif,
Rosh
6
Who
Term
‫דם דיליה‬
7
Type
(thin) ‫דם הנפש‬
‫דם איברים‬
(thick) ‫דם איברים‬
8
Law
‫כרת‬
‫לאו‬
‫לאו‬
V2
1.
2.
Rav (R’ Zeira)
Braisa
‫דם דאתי מעלמא‬
From beis hashchita
http://www.biologyjunction.com/sheep_heart_dissection_lab_repor.htm © 2014 E. Horowitz
114
General opinions
about eating the heart
‫בס''ד‬
Shiur 20 – P. 155
A
B
C
1
Darchei Moshe
Custom not to cook heart
May cook without opening
2
Darchei Moshe
Many people do cook hearts
3
Yeish (Rama)
Do not cook
4
Rashal (Taz)
Maikil
5
Pri Megadim, Chavas Da’as
Minhag to cook
6
Gemorah (Horaios 13B)
Not advisable
Bad for memory
7
Arizal (Kaf Hachaim)
Not advisable
Connects soul to animal
Leads to forgetfulness and
simplicity
© 2014 E. Horowitz
115
Cooking heart full of
blood
‫בס''ד‬
Shiur 20 – P. 156
Gemorah
• Cooked heart with blood
• Can empty heart after cooking (Chullin 109B)
• Heart is smooth. Does not absorb during cooking. (Pesachim 74B)
Rashi, Rambam
• Case: Cooked heart with blood
• Heart is smooth, wont absorb blood
• According to Pesachim
• Can empty heart after cooking
V2
R’ Tam, Bais Yosef
• Case: Roasted heart with blood
• Heart does absorb
• Pesachim is not psak
• Can empty heart after cooking
• Blood that was not absorbed now comes out
• Blood that was absorbed came out during roasting
© 2014 E. Horowitz
116
Heart full of blood Mechaber
‫בס''ד‬
Shiur 20 – P. 156
Sometimes the Mechaber
allows us to drain the blood
of the heart after the fact.
Shach asks that the heart
blood is dom b’ain and
should be assur.
Mechaber
Salting
Roasting
Cooking
Empty after salting
Empty after roasting
Need 60 to mevatel
Why does the blood in the heart which is dom b’ain not a problem? Sifsai Da’as (3)
A
B
C
S’vora
Kula
Chumra
1
Toras Chatas
Small amount of dom b’ain absorbed
can be removed like dom plaita.
Even external source of dom
b’ain can be removed.
Blood is real dom b’ain and will assur
other meat.
2
Maharai
Blood dries up and is like dom plaita.
Blood is like dom plaita and
will not assur other meat.
External dom b’ain will assur heart.
3
Ramban
Heart is smooth. Does not absorb.
External blood ok
Will not assur other meat
Does not mention a chumra
V2
© 2014 E. Horowitz
117
‫בס''ד‬
Heart full of blood Mechaber
Shiur 20 – P. 157
Case A:
• Not opened
• Not Salted
• Blood in chambers
• Blood in walls
• Cooked
Case B:
• Not opened
• Salted
• Blood in chambers
• Blood in walls?
• Cooked
How much other food is needed to mevatel the heart?
Case A
Not Salted
Case B
Salted
Notes
60x chambers (b)
No blood in walls
60x chambers (b) (implied)
Agrees with Sharai Dura
Argues with Sharai Dura
1
Sharai Dura
2
Tur (Maharshal(Taz))
3
Tur (Rama, Shach)
60x heart (a)
4
Taz, Maharil
60x heart (a)
5
Mechaber
60x heart (a)
6
Mechaber (Shach)
7
Minchas Yaakov
8
Rama
60x heart (a)
60x heart (a)
Heart assur
60x chambers (b)
60x heart (a)
Ch’n’n
Heart assur
Blood dries inside (Shach)
a. Entire Heart
b. Chambers
c. Walls
Shach asks why Tur needs 60x heart if salted. No blood in walls, should need only 60x chambers.
Answer
Shach notes
1
Smak (IVH)
Like salting meat on one side. Some blood remains.
Heart like large piece of meat. Is salted on both sides.
2
Tur (Shach)
Can’t estimate chambers.
Mechaber holds we can measure chambers.
3
Mechaber (Shach)
Heart has not been salted
If salted, only need 60x chambers.
V2
© 2014 E. Horowitz
118
‫בס''ד‬
Blood davuk to heart
Heart davuk to Meat
Shiur 20 – P. 159
Meat davuk
to heart
Meat touching
heart
heart
blood
Case A
Blood davuk to heart
Heart davuk to meat
Salted together
Cooked together
Case B
Blood davuk to heart
Heart touching meat
Salted Together
Cooked together
Case A
Case B
Need 60x heart. Blood davuk to heart
1
Minchas Yaakov
Need heart walls & meat = 60x cavities
2
Sifsai Da’as
Like Minchas Yaakov in hefsed m’rubeh
3
Rama (Shach)
Halacha
Remove klipa from meat
Remove klipa from meat
4
Rama (Minchas Yaakov)
Remove klipa from meat
Don’t need to remove klipa
5
RAE, Dagul Mair’vava
Count heart as klipa?
Count heart as klipa?
6
Yad Ephraim
Blood does not go into heart, just meat.
Blood does not go into heart, just meat.
V2
© 2014 E. Horowitz
119