I trZ
Session 9.
Dr. Massimc Introvigne.
MARYPCPPINS GCES TO HELL. PAI4ELATRAVERS, GURDJIEFF, AltD TIIE
RH TORTCSCF FUNDAMELTALISI"I.
Dr. MassinÒ Introvigne was brn in Rorne,Italy, on June 14, 1955.
He holds acaCemic degrees J.n philosophy (Pontifical Gregorian
University, Ronìe) anC 1aw (Tr:rin University) . A Lecturer in
Philosophy anC Sociology of La\.tat the University of Turin (19791988), he has been professor of sociology of religious mcvements
at the Theological Facultv of Scuthern ltaly (1990-1993) anC
currently at the Pontlfical AthenaeumRegina APosr-olorumin Rom3.
He Lives in Tur j.n ' Northern lta]yr where he also workg as partner
in one of the larg3st inCust:ial consultanry firms in Italy. In
1988 he established CESNUR,the center for Stulies on New
Religions, an international associaticn of scholars of new
religicus anC magical xpvem3nts' which currenlly has chapters :'n
Ir-alv, Fran.. anC the Unj.ted States anC ccnvenes a yearly
:-nte-rnationat conference. He is the author of 13 books and the
editor of ancther nine in lhe fielC of new religious nov.ments
anC contemporary gsotèrLcism.
Since tne presenter spoke to the written PaPer which fo1l,ows, it
represents essentially !,rhat vras said at the Conference.
154.
Mary PoppinsGoesto Hell. PamelaTravers,Gurdjieff' and the Rethoricsof
Fundamentalism
MassimoIntrovigne
titled at full
On September
6, 1995La Stanpa,Turin'sdaily newspaper,
page "ls Mary Poppinsreally Satan?".Many readerswere, understandably,
than the undersigned.
In fact I
surprisedbut no readerwas more astonished
to have"clearlinkswith
Mary Poppins
learnedfrom thearticlethatt hadaccused
that"under
theesotericandsatanicthought".I wascreditedfor havingdiscovered
creature
washidden,with
the gentlemaskof theextraordinary
nannya dangerous
interviewed
an
featuresno Iessthansatanic"'.
The samejournalist,appropriately,
of
exorcistwho complainedthat "lntrovignenormallyminimizesthe presence
whereI arguethat the
to my bookon Satanism,
Satanin our life'' (a reference
is minimumcomparedto the numberof thosewho
numberof real Satanists
promoteSatanismscares)t.But this, for the exorcist,amountedto still more
convincingevidencethat Mary Poppinswas really satanic:"If someonelike
MassimoIntrovignehaswrittensucha thing,thiscouldonly meanthatthedanger
is reallythere"'.Theproblemwas,however,thatI hadneverwrittensucha thing.
Awenirehad
The daybefore,on September
5, 1995,theCatholicdailynewspaper
a smalipartof a chapteron PamelaTraversandMary Poppinsof my
anticipated
book 1/ sacropo.rînotlerno'.îhe chapterand the article were, if anything,
This did not preventa
to PamelaTravers(and Mary Poppins).
complimentary
from pickingup the newsthat Mary
majorityof the ltaÌiandaily newspapers
-- for a numberof reasons
-- to a
Poppinswasa Satanist.
Havinga goodaccess
to be interviewed
numberof dailynewspapers
andto the nationalTV, I managed
in the eveningnews of Channel2, wrote a letterto La Stanpa and slowly
By
persuadedmost reportersthat there was in fact_abig misunderstanding.
1/
September8, the situationwas improvingand the leftist daily newspaper
'
'
PaoloPoleni,'' 'Mary Poppins?Satana"',La Stulrpa.Juneó. 1995.
Seemy Inlogíne v
Mondadori1994.
sotatismo.Satdnistie antí-satanistidal Seicentoaí nosui giorni, Mllan:
'
PaoloPoletti,"l bimbi nel mirino", interviewwith the exorcistDon CabrieleAmorth,Za
Stanrpa,June6, 1995.
'
See my "Mary Poppinsesoterica",Avvenire, September5, 1995 and my book //
posunodernoChiesa,relativisnn e nuovareligiosità,Milan: Gribaudi,1996,pp.293-304.
2
Manifestowrote, appropriately,that the newswas nor that I had accusedMary
Poppinsof Satanism,
but thata reputable
newspaper
rikeLa stampahadentirery
misrepresented
a honestarticre. cafling my articre in Awenite "originar,
entertaining
and scholarly",II Munifestocommented
that "Introvignesimply
analyzed
the culturaleducationof pamelaTravers"and"calledfor more scholarly
studiesabout the importantcurturalinfluenceof curdjieff in Europe".The
newspaper
correctlynotedthatthe word"esotericism"
thatI usedfor the work of
Pamela
Traversis nota synonym. of "occultism"
andmuchlessof "satanism,,.
By confusingthreedifferentthings- esoterícism,
-- ra
occultismand Satanism
stampahad"invented"newsthatneverwas'.Reconsidered
aftersix months.the
curiousincident
had,at least,theadvanlage
ofcaflingtheartenrion
of the ltarian
public to Gurdjieff and his influence.After all, we do not hear
every day
Gurdjieffmentionedin the eveningnews.To a sociorogist
rike me, the incident
also offers the opportunity for some commentson the rethorics
of
fundamentalism.
PameluTruyers,Gurdjieff, and Mary poppins
PamelaTraversmet Gurdjieffin 193g,while the first edition
of Mary
Poppinswaspublishedin 19346.
The equallyfamousMary poppinsComesBack
followedin 1935'.AlthoughTraversmay haveheardaboutcurdjieff
in the
British esotericmilieu beforetheir personalmeeting.(and
I am told by James
t"roorethat she correspondedwith oràie and other curdjieff enthusiasts)
,
it is unclear whether Gurdjíeff \,rasmore than a nane for her before
193g.
Any direct ínfluence
by curdjieff is inore likely to be found in the
following Mary Poppinsbooks(particularlyMary poppinsOpensthe Door, 1944
and Mart Poppins in the Park, 1952)'. Travers,of course,is more clearly
influencedby Curdjieff in her non-fictionworks About the Sleeping.
Beauty
(1975)and Whutthe BeeKnows(1989)",andin her non-Marypoppinsfictional
'
Giuseppina
Ciuflleda, "Mary Poppinsnon è Satana',,
g, 1995.
II Manifeslo,September
'P.L.Travers,
Mury I'oppíts,London:GeraldHowe,1934.
'P.L.Trzvers,
Marlt l'oppittsConesBack,London:LovatDickson& Thompson.1935.
'
P L. Travers,Myry tloppitlsOpens.
the_
Door, London:peterDavies,1944;Ead.,Mary poppins
in theI'ark, London:PeterDavies,1952.
'?.L.
Travers,lbout tlrc SIeeping.Deauty,
New york: McCraw-Hill, 1975;Ead., lhhat the Bee
Ktrows.Reflectionsot Mvth, Synbbl aru! Stories,Wellingborough:
The Aquarianpress,19g9.
í qÉ,
wofk Friend Monke,v(1971)''. All scholarsof curdjieff are famíliar with the
entryontheMasterauthoredbyPamelaTraversforRichardCavendish'
fascinating
Man, Myth & Magic ( 1970)",andwith the subsequent
encyclopedia
bookletGec'gelvanovíîchGurdiieff(1973)".Apart from placingGurdjieffs birth
date in 1877 (ratherthan in the more probable1866)'',Travers'work still
maintains the taste of a genuine Gurdjieffian experience,and is a good
introductionto the Fourth Way for beginners.The perennialpopularityof Mary
worksand
to exploreTravers'other
thus,couldbecomean opportunity
Poppins,,
with Curdjieff.
herrelations
Thisisnot,however,theonlypossibility.Althoughanydirect;influence
of Gurdjieff is unconfirmedrfor
the first two booksof the MaryPoppinssaga'
the situationcould be different for Maty Poppinsin the Park, publishedín 1952'
On the otherhand,onecouldapplyto Mary Poppinsthe theorythatMax Weber
suggestedfor capitalism.Although early modern capitalism,in Italy and
before
or "puritan"manydecades
couldobviouslynot be "protestant"
elsewhere,
Martin Luther and John Calvin, Weberarguedthat capitalismhad from its very
,'electiveaffinities" with puritan protestantism.In
beginning some significant
time, these"electiveaffinities"(a conceptWeberborrowedfrom Goethe,who had
andforgedan
usedit in a very differentcontext)would haverevealedthemselves
alliancebetweencapitalismandpuritanism'..I arguethatMary Poppinshad,from
an "electiveaffinity"with Gurdjieffsthought.Thiswas,of course,
the beginning,
to Theosophical
not entirelycasual.Travers,from 1925on, hadbeenintroduced
society,including
thoughtandto literaryfiguresfamiliarwith the Theosophical
GeorgeRussellandWilliam ButlerYeats.The latterwas,of course,alsooneof
'o
P.L. Travers,ftientl Monkey,New York: HarcourtBraceJovanovich'l97l '
Magíc:An lllusn'aud
" P. Travers,entry "Gur jieff', in fuchardCavendishled), Ma't, My,th&
Zncyclàpediao1íhu Srpi,r,arru'ol,New York: MarslrallCavendishCorporation,1970,24 voll''
vol 9, pp. l l88-l 189.
''
P.L. Travers,Georgelt'unor,ítchGrdjie/f,Toronto: TraditionalStudiesPress,1973'
Myth' A
" According to the seminal work by JamesMoote, Gurdjielf: The Anatonryof a
Element199l'
(Massachussetts):
(Dorset)-Rockporî
Biography,shaftesbury
''
On the conceptof "electiveaffinity" in WeberseeHubertTreibet, "Nietsche'sMonas!9ryfo.r
Freer Spirits and Weber's Sect", in Hartmut Lehmannand GuentherRoth (eds), I/eóerk
Erhic: Otigíns, Evidence, Conrerfs, Cambridge-NewYork: Cambridge University
Protesú
Press,1993,pp. 133-159.
4
the leadersof the Golden Dawn''. Although many authorshave insisted on
a recentstudyby PaulJohnson-- controversialbut useful
Gurdjieffs uniqueness,
-- insistson whathe hadin commonwithTheosophy
anda largerwestemesoteric
tradition'ó.The coúespondence
betweenTraversand StaffanBergsten,when the
latterwaspreparinghis book MarytPoppinsand Myth (1978)1',is particularly
bookbut the
TraversinsiststhatMary Poppinsis not onlya children's
interesting.
consciouscreationof a myth. One could wonderwhetherTraverspurposelyled
Bergsten
awayfrom the Gurdjiefftrack,sincethe Masteris nevermentionedin
Mary Poppinsund M1,th.Bergsten,however,at leastinsistson what he calls the
"mythicalmethod"of Mury Poppinr.
-
I will give only threeexamples
ofthese"electiveaffinities".In chapterl0
.;
#of Maty Poppinswe meetthe animalsof a zoo dancingthe "GrandChain"(a
mi'litarydance,but also -- as Bergstenknows-- a referenceto the esotericGreat
Chainof Being) guidedby a snake,Hamadryad(the snakeis commonin Yeats
surprisedthat the
and Traverswas also an admirorof Blake).To the children,
animals,left free,do not eateachother,the snakeexplainsthatafterall
'it may be that to eat and be eatenarc the sane thjng in the end. My wisdom tells me
"
that this is probablyso. We are all madeof tlì€ samestuff, remember,we of the Jungle,you of
the City. TIìe samesubstancecomposesus -- the tree overhead,the stonebeneathus, the bird,
tllat wh€ you no
the beast,the star -- we are all one, all noving to the sameend. Remernber
longerremember
me,my child.'
'But lìow catrtreebe sîone?A bird is not rne.Jare is not a tiger,'saidMichaelstoutly.
'You think uot?' said the Hzunadryad's
hissingvoice. 'Lookl' and he noddedhis head
towardsthe moving mass of creatues before them. Birds and animals were now swaying
together,closelyencirclingMary Poppins,who wasrockingliglrtly fiom sideto side.Backwàrds
and forwardswent the swayingcrowd,keepingtime together,swinginglike the pendulun of a
clock. Eventhe treeswere bendingand lifting gently,andtlre moonseernedto be rocking in the
skv asa shiorockson the sea.
" SeeGeorgeMilts Harper, Yeuts'sGoltlanDawn: Thelnllueuceof the llennetíc Order oJ'the
Golden Davrt on thc Lí[e und An of 14.ll. Yeuts,Londotì:Macmillan, 1974;in general:Ellic
Howe, TheMugícíuttsof the GoldenDawr A Docunentdrylli,tto'y ol a Magical Order 1887l923,London: Routledge& KeganPaul, 1972.
''
SeeK. Pauf lollrsotr,I ítiotesoÍTheosophicalMasters,Albany (New York): StateUniversity
ofNew York Press.1995.
''
StaffanBergstenl
, MdD, Poppinsand Myth, Stockholm:Almqvist & Wiksell Intemational,
1978.
l-lì
'Bfud and beast and stone and star -- we are all
one, all one -J murmured the
Hamadryad,soffly folding his hoodabouthim ashe himselfswayedbetweenthe chíldren.
'Child andserpent,starandstone-- all one"'r8.
I would take a secondexampleftom Mary PoppinsComesBack, where
-- slzmnetrically-to a chapterín Mary Poppins.Like
eachchaptercorresponds
the trrins Johnand Barbarain Maty Poppíns,the newly bom babyof the Banks
family of Mant Poppins ComesBack, Annabel,talks with a starling. Infant
the language
childrenin the sagaof Mary Poppinsarein factableto understand
of the animals,but they forgetafter a few months.In fact,theyforgeta numberof
Annabel,the
from the followingdialoguebetween
otherthings,aswe understand
starlingandoneof his fledglings:
"Amabel movedher hardsinsidethe blanket.
'l am earthand air and fue and water.'shesaidsoftlv. 'I comefrom the Dark whereall
thingshavetheirbeginning.'.
'Ah. suchdarkl'said the Starlingsoftly, bendinghis headto his breast.
'lt wasdark in the egg,too!' the Fledglingcheeped.
'l comefrom the seaand its tides,'Annabelwenton. 'I comefrom the sky and its stars;I
come from the sunand its brightness-J
'A-h,so bright!'saidthe Starling,nodding.
'And I comefrom the forestsof earth.'
As if in a dream,Mary Poppinsrockedthe cradle - to-and-fro,to-and-frowith a
steadyswingingmovernent.
'Yes?'whisperedthe Fledgling.
"
'Slowly I movedat first,' saidAnnabel,'alwayssleepinganddreaming.I remembered
all
I had been,aadI thoughtofall I shallbe. And whenI haddreamedmy dream,I awokeandcame
swiftly.'
Shepausedfot a moment,her blueeyesfull ofmemories.
'And then?'pfompredîhe Fledgling.
'l heardthe starssingingas I cameand t feld warm wings aboutme. I passedthe beasts
ofthejungle and camethroughthe dark,deepwaters.It wasa longjoumey.'
fumabelwassilent.
îre Fledglingstaredat her with his brighl inquisitiveeyes.
Mary Poppins'handlay quietlyon the sideofthe cradle.Shehadstoppedrocking.
" P.L.Tnvers,MaryI'oppíns,pp.172-173.
159.
'A longjoumey, indeed!'said the Starlingsoftly, lifting his headfiom his breast''And,
ah,so soonforgottenl'
Aruabel stirred under the quilt.
'No!' shesaidconfidently.'l'll neverforget.'
'Stuff and Nonsense!BeaksandClaws!Of courseyou will. By the time the week'sout
you. won'ttemembera word of it -- whatyou areor whereyou calnefrom!'
Insideher flannelpetticoatAnnabelwaskickiugfrfiously.
'l wilM will! Ho$,couldI forget?'
'Everysilly human,excePt'-- he
'Because
they all do!'jeered the Statlingharshly.
- 'her!"''n.
noddedhisheadat Mary Poppins
to Blake,but also to the
Here,again,thereis a quiteobviousreference
Theosophical
schemeof thedescentofthe humansalongthe Rays.Gurdjieffis
in touchwith
not far awayif we reflectthat childrenarebom with a pureessence
the mysteriesof the universe,that will soonbe overcomeby a personalitythat
In turn,the only way
will forgeteverythingaboutthe trueoriginof the humans.
is to be "different"like Mary Poppins:"She is the
the personality
to overcome
to theStarling'?o.
Oddity,sheis theMisfit" according
A third example comes Îrom Mary Poppinsin the Park (written, as
mentionedearlier, after Travers had met Gurdjieff). Here Jane and Michael
discoverthat the real word is probablylessreal than it may seem.Wlile Janeis
readingto Michaelin the Parkthestoryof thethreeprinces,Florimond,Veritain
and Amor, the princesstepout from the bookandstarta real-lifeconversation
with thechildren:
"'Don'tyou know us, Jane?'askedFlorimond,smiling.
'Yes,of course!'sltegasped.'But - how did you gethere?'
'Didn'tyou see?'askedveritain.'You smiledat us and we smiledat you. And îhe
picturelookedso slrinyalld bright- you andMichaelald the paintedroses..'
'Sowe jurnpedright into the story!'Amor concludedgaily.
'Outof jt, you mean!'criedMichael.'We're
nota story.We'rerealpeople.It's you who
arethe pictues!'
The Princestossedtheir cutls andlaughed.
'Touchme!' saidFlorimond.
''
'o
P.L.Travers,Mary PoppinsConesllack, pp. 142-144.
lbid.
360.
'Takemy hand!'urgedVeritain.
'Here'smy dagger!'cried Amor.
Michael took the golden weapon.It was sharpand solid and warm from Amo/s body.
'Who's real now?' Amor demanded.Tuck it into youÌ belt,' he said, smiling at
face"".
Michael'sastonished
One shouldnot jump to the conclusionthat thereis a clearlygurdjieffian
elementhereaboutthe real word not beingtoo "real" afterall, sincethis is simply
an inversionofthe themeof earlierMary Poppinsstories,wherethe children(and
Mary Poppinsand her friend Bert) may jump into a book or a
occasionally
thinksthatonesourceis a bookby WilliamAndersonaboutthe
picture.Bergsten
storyof the ChinesepainterWu Tao-Tsz,of the T'angdinasty(600-900A.D.),
and "wasneverseenagain"22.
who enteredone of his own pictures,disappeared
The idea of an "elective affinity" betweenTravers' "mythical method" and
Gurdjieff remainshoweverhereparticularlyfascinating.
We should, of course,resist the temptationof readingtoo much of
in TheParis
Curdjieff into Mary Poppins'stories.fn an interviewwhichappeared
Reviewin 1982the interviewersaskedTraverswhether"Mary Poppins'teaching- if onecancall it that:- resemblethat of Christin his parables".
Traversreplied:
I'vestudied
Zenfora longtime,toldmeîhatev€ryone(andall the
"MyZenmaster,because
storiesweren'twritîen the[) ofthe Mary Poppinsstoriesis in essence
a Zen story.And someone
else,who is a bit of a Don Juan,told me that everyoneof the storiesis a momentof tremendous
sexualpassion,becauseit beginswith such tensionand then it is reconciledand resolvedin a
way that is gloriouslysensual".
The answeris clarified by the following question:"So peoplecan read
"lndeed"t'.
into thestories?".
anythingandeverything
" P.L. Tnvers, Mary I'oppinsin tle Park,p. l3l.
" S. Bergsten.Marv I'oppittsuttdMytl, p. 64. The referenceis to William Anderson,Desciptive
and Hístoical Cutulogne td a Collection of Jupuneseund Chinese Paintings in the {lntish
of Printsand Drawings,1886.Bergstenmisspells
Musem, London'.British Museum-Department
the nameofthe notedhistorianof Japanese
an as "Andersqn".
" Edwina Burnessand Jerry Criswold, "The Art of Fiction LXXIII - P.L. Travers",The Paris
(Fall1982),2lt-229(218).
Review,24:8
1 A'l
8
TheReîhorícsof Fundementalism
It wouldbe niceto concludeon this sobernote,but I wouldlike to add a
Althoughnew religious and
final commenton the rhetoricsof fundamentalism.
esotericmovementsonly amountto lYo of thegeneralpopulationin all Western
for all kindsofsocialtrouble.
countries,they havebecomea convenientscapegoat
The secular anti-cult movement is minored, within christianíty, by a
fundamentalistcounter-cultmovementthat seesthe direct work of the Devil
Generallyspeaking,
theactivitiesofboth the secularanti-cult
behindall "cults"'n.
and the religious counter-cultmovementshave been less successfulthan they
normallylike to believe.For manygroupsandprivateindividuals,
however,the
assault-- largely basedon ignorance-- has begn a sourceof unnecessary
suffering.The rhetoricsof the "children in danger"has beenoften used in the
counter-cultists
havebeenparticularlyactive
.]antlcult discourse.Fundamentalist
in "discovering"
occultor Satanicmeanings
hiddenin childrenliterature.A case
in point is MadeleineL'Engle(in fact, if anything,a liberalChristian)whose
award-winningbooks for young boys and girls (particularlyher Time Trilogt,
which consistsof A lltrinkle in Tine, A lVind in the Door, andA Swiftly Tîlting
Planet)" have beenaccusedby fundamentalist
Christiansto carry sinister New
Age and occult messages,
not far from Anton LaVey's SatanicBible'o. True,
have been able to prove that L'Engle occasionallyflirts with
fundamentalists
esotericismand quotesTheosophicalauthors.But, once again, in the case of
L'Engle- and countlessotherauthors-- the rhetoricsof fundamentalism
operate
with occultism,andoccultismwith Satanism.
by confusingesotericism
My own
adventurewith La StampaaboutPamelaTraversand Mary Poppinsshows that
this rhetoric may make dangerousinroadsinto the mainlinepress.The latter,
however,unlike its fundamentalist
lringe counterpart,
is at leastpreparedto hear
anothersideof the story, and occasionallyto correctits own errors.It would be,
however,a mistakefor scholarsand friendsof esotericismalike to dismissthe
" For the differenceseemy "The SecularAnti-Cult and the ReligiousCounter-CultMovement:
ShangeBedfellowsof Future Enemies?",in Eric Towler (ed.), ,VeryRelisionsand the New
Errrapa,Aarhus-Oxford:Universityof AarhusPress,1995,pp. 32-54.
t'
MadeleineL'Engle,I lltúnkle in i"nre, New York: Farrar,SrrausandCúalty,1962; A Windin
the Door, New York: Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 1968; I Swiltly TiltiÌtg I'lanet, New york:
Fanar,StrausandCiroux. 1978.
" For a typical fundanentalis assaultsee Brenda Scott - SamanthaSmitJt,Troyan Horse: How
the New Age Moyenent Inrtltates the Church, Lafayette (Louisiana): Huntington House
Publishen.1993.
9
dangerousrhetoricsof fundamentalismas merely stupid,and to underestimate
the
popular
the
press.
of
:ower
irrr
Sesslon
9 Questions, Answers and Contributions'
J a n e s M o o r e : I w o u l i l j u s t J . i k e t o i n t e r j e c t s o n e t h i n g , a )who
inÍIy
and b) as someone has known
lilI.iiv"t"'c"iail"i*Éi"srapher,"*t'"y
y"ut=' It only touches on Èhe
Pamel-a Travers tor many,
r think i! was around 1960 that r
chronology of your aisseitatión'
a meal '. and there fe1l out of
was in Pamela Traverrs n"t"À-ftt"i"g
a letter of
a book that we were :out-ioortine aÉ on the bookshelf Richard orage'
from Alfred
or parnéra in her óriting,
Jr"àr."é.t"tl
to.have Prof' Paul
peihaps
like
died, and r óuia
;i;;-ó;.g.
sinie oràge died on the 5th of
come in o"-ùti",
eà"r^"t-tàvr.i
influence on orage of course
major
Noverber 1934, and sincà a very
it seetns Lo me bhat very probably Pamela Travers
was Gurdjieff,
in a nrost favouiaÉle light prior to the
fr"à i,""ré of óurdjieff
your
so that nay touch on- the question of
writing of that tetter.
pre-elective
chronology and whether one has to relv on
;;;;;ií
evidence
verbal
on
simply
or whethèr one would rely
àffinity
Pamela
occasion
another
'
ón
*ótn"r
transmitted from one
her
to
seemed
Heap
"tilài-to
Jane
that
t" me about .'."e if.up, saying.
granite'
of
out
carved
been
"p"-f."
to have a kind of countànà'nóe tÉat-had
betwixt Pamela and Jane lleap ' but
r donrt know the relationship
in
qranted that there was any cònrnerce early on it \^/ou1dPlace-her
íi""""id^r,rÀtò.."i
solano
e"a"iJón, catherine có9mue
3na Solito
I
writers' so
;;J-th" whole melee of that'bunch of people' those
'
your
hhesis
in
it might be taken into account
lo=t-t}tinf.
I thank you, the Ílore so because I was
Dr, Massiro Introvigne:
in my itatian book o-n suggesting any direct inflnence
l.ry-"ài"iùr
wi!:l .
pre 1938, followj-ng as you will. r ernembermy,co-rrespondglce
that
have
evidence
only
we
because
ne tó be;areful
;;.-Y;t'tol'd
if
know
dontt
b'ut
r
possiblè.
it is
they met in 1938. so r
before
ideas
".V-lf'ttt
ii-i"
ót.n"ure that she wàs exposea to Gurdjieff's
perhap". i! i?..
ié:à. i." ievising this, r sho-uld probably say
that either
proUunf" and not ónly possible' Thè question remains
esoteric
she heard that someone'càifea curajiéff was-a wonderful which you
ideas
à"po""d Éo sorne of the
teacher or she was t.uriy
poppií=.
inat is a good.question which probabl-y
Mary
could find in
in .Mary
i"rn in", and it iè suiàly fascinating to- find Gurdjieff
;il;;;:
ri.",-inà beginn'ingl-was -caieful becausesomeof the
knew
literature' which she surely
-i'o
ideas are also in Theosophical
Gurdjieff' I just want to nention on the
rr"ioi" ir't" *u" u*po"ed
siae, tkrai trrerJ-is-ànótrrut qo"-"tion which has fascinated
lifit;r
Arthur Conan
'Àvi"-rt**'dtÀ
rie for manyyears' ano i would love io conclude that was the
of Moriarty, who as-you will know
ilisliked' when
""i"
teacher of Dion rorune, ihat óonan ooylé intensely
trà createa Professor uoiiarty as the arch-enemt'of,sherlock
whether when Professór Moriarty was created by ConqnIle
frÀf*"", 'r,'tàtiutty
the esoteric teacher wàs unknownin England'
iovià,
does
was only a Masonic uutr,or- in south Africa. So the chronology
because
-nà".-èo"u"what would otherwise be a fascinating theory'
againstspiriÈualism
""1 """?it*
Doyle who is defending
this. '
""
esotericism and the esótéric teacheis who are despising want to
who doesnrt
-have
nystic spiritualism. e"à-"u itu"" ConanDoyle
anything to- ilo with
to
want
join the Golden Dawn.tà a.."";t
Dion Fortune, and whenhe hears about Moriarty he iàtensely
have the very
àisrites this brand of esoteri'cisrn' And then we
which is called
saga
Holmes
incarnation of evil in tnu-Àrr.rrock
154.
Professor Moriarty, just like Dion Fortuners teaching. But the
chronology does not fit unless we find some evidence that perhaps
Conan Doy1e had a South Mrican correspondent in Masonic circles
who told hirn sorneÈhingabout Moriarty's South African activities.
So in the interaction
and esotericism we have
between literature
these chronoLogical problems, but time prevents us from j tnnping to
otherwise fascinating conclusions.
Sy Ginsburg: Ilow significant
in your opinion is the title
Beelzebub's Tales in this difficulty
with fundamentalists.
part of the problen in Gurdj ieffianism?
Is that
Dr. Massinlo Introvigne:
I think the reaL problen is ignorance.
to
The problen is that Gurdjieffian thought is very difficult
grasp. The ordinary journalist does not have much patience witÌì
thi,ngs difficult
to grasp. So he sinply places it into the
esoteric, occult, and Satanic category without giving a second
chance to iÈ. But I think the situation
is iuproving. Sone
journalists,
not a}l of them, are now more ready to hear another
part of the story and we have seen positive coÍments about some
esoteric authors in the journals, including Gurdjieff,
in ItaJ,y,
',vhohas
particularly
because of a .oopular folk singer, Battiato,
established a publishing house for translating works by Gurdjieff
into Italian
and he is quite popular. Ile rìakes hinself heard
speaking positively
of Gurdjieff and some other authors including
strangel"y enough recently Charbonneau-Lassay, a French Catholic
esoteric author who has been published in a luxury edition which
is soLd for the equivalent of 200 dollars. This 'oook has had
astonishingly favourable reviews in the mainline press. So I
think the situation
is inproving, aÈ least in countries where
fundatnentalism is restricted to sna11 circles, not prevailing as
in some parts of the United States.
Prof Paul BeekmanTaylor:
the
Just as a poínt of information,
witch hunt is on right now in Switzerl-and as we all knovr because
of the latest scandals over the past year in Canada, Switzerland and
France. It is the Order of the Temple of the Sun, and some people
have picked this up and since this happened in Switzerland in
Cheyry, which is up in the nxruntains, not far frorn Crans Montana,
where of course there is a nrajor Gurdjieff group. And the pressure
is begì.nning to nount, particularly
in that area, and I think in
the very short term it is going to be very uncomfortable. Bu! in
the long term, I agree with you entirely that things are looking
much better. But now they look very very bad in Switzerland.
Dr. Massiro Introvigne: I wouLd make two points of interest.
Nì.nnberone, a recent conference in France on Religious Movenents,
organized by the French Association of Sociologists quite some
tirne ago, became a big debate in the French press and parliament.
To give you an idea of the situation in France, the currenb
President of the International
Association of Sociology of
Religion, Roland CaÍpiche frorn Lausanne, conpared very favourably
the Swiss press, saying i! is much more noderate than the French
press on this issue.
Nuinber t\^ro, I think Swiss citizens
are, r wonrt say suspicious of
any police action against cults, occult esotaric groups, even
aflei tire Solar Temple incident. I will te1l you a story about the
French speaking part of Switzerland. Íhere is a very popular Tv
show called Justice en Marche. It is a sort of legal show based on
rlock trials with lawyers posing as judges' and then there are two
people arguing from opposite points of view about an issue- Then
there are voters picked up in all the French speaking cantons '
organized on the basis of a market survey. After Ehe first Solar
Terrple incídene, a guy whose daughter or sister was a member of a
sma11 religious group , but conrlitted suicide' proposed special
legislation against cults. And there was this debate on JustÍce en
Marche, and as happens too often in French speaking Parts of
Europe, local- scholarly societies were quite scared to go against
so Finall"y they said we donrt want to come, but
the anti-cult,
in Italy who speaks very good French. So Lhey
is
someone
there
instead
and perhaps because Monsieur laverguat of the
me
ca11ed
is not a great debater, it was the first
organization
anti-cu1t
of
this sho\.t that all the votes were cast in
tirne in the history
no
anti-cu1t laws, and Monsieur Laverguat did
favour of my theory,
get
one vote in favour of his stand. So I think that
not even
Swiss citizens are open to the idea that special laws are a threat
Swiss Ereedom.
to retigíous liberty and traditional
It is probabLy known Ehat some Jesuits in
Dùtitri Peretzi:
Catifornía have occupied themselves very much wiLh the Enneagram
and the types on the Enneagran, and also have made a system of
prayer I praying through the Enneagram.On SePtember19th' 1994,
there was an articl-e in a Greek newspaperI Ta Nea, the editor of
which is La Braki.s, which ís probably the nost conservative on
It was a big article saying that Bishops in the Vatican
religion.
'oeing offered courses on the Enneagr3m.
are
Yes. Well let me resume the story which
Dr. MassirTroIntrovigne:
is guiee good fun. Most of you will know the basics of the story,
so I will shorten the first part. As you know the Enneagramwas
real-ly developed as an easy type assessing system by Claudio
lhe difference
Naranjo, and Oscar Ichazo of the Arica Institute.
being that Claudio Naranjo recognized his debt to Gurdjieff, and
Oscer lchazo denied any indebtedness to Gurdjieff saying he had
seen all of it in a mystical vision, and this had nothing to do
with Gurdjieff. Ile ca1led it the Enneagonrather than the
Enneagram. And then that vras picked up by Iielen Palmer Ìiho was a
psychic, Flelen Palmer not being her real name, in California, and
and with a nunber
who had good contacts with the Arica Instítute
sorts
but
then
all
of
religious orders
first'
Jesuits
of Jesuíts.
PaLmer
and
directly
from
Helen
even
from
take
courses
to
began
discussions
among
tJ:e
were
ferocious
Claudio Naranjo. îhere
Jesuits on the Enneagram. SomeJesuíts even 1efÈ the order. The
discussion was not whether the Enneagran was good or bad. There
are anti Enneagram Jesuits such as Father PacÍa, but the main
díscussion was on different interpretations of the Enneagram. But
then chere was a È'ranciscan schooì-, Father RicharC Rohr ' who is
now fed up with the Enneagram, and is no longer giving courses. He
was one who taught a course Eo 33 Bishops including 2 Cardinals.
tle is now in the nen's. mf,venent' al!'rays sPeaking about what is
fashionable, and no longer in the Enneagran movement. So that is
166.
basiceilly the story. What is less well known is that there was a
court case about the Enneagram. The Arica InsÈiÈute sued Eelen
Palmer'and a nunber of these Catholic grouPs, saying that Lhey had
The
the teachings of the Arica Institute.
basically plagiarized
decision was that ideas per se are not coPyrightable ' so Palner
and the Catholi.c Priests and Nuns won, but however, the judgenent
because at leasÈ there are
by lhe Arica Institute
was circulated
sore parts of the j udgenent which shovted that Palmer borrowed
So il was a noral
quite heavily from Oscar fchazo I s writings.
victory but a legal defeat. Now there is a huge debate. I wrote
about this recentJ.y in t-he Awenire, the Catholic daily newspaper
because sone conservative Catholics are accusing Bishops
in Italy,
and PriesÈs of using the Erureagram.to become followers of
saying, if you use the Enneagran' you are using the
Gurdjieff,
and this is not corpatible with the Catholic
system of Gurdjieff
faith. They reply: No. because the Enneagran had not been invented
but is a Sufi or Moslen thing. And then there are
by Gurdjieff
saying: No, the Enneagran is a tltPe watching
sone IslaÍplogists
but is rea1ly
tool and is not found in any Sufi tradition,
there were
post
era.
of
course
Gurdjieff
and
the
Gurdjieff
different
among
Moslens from
interpretation
rvas
the
but
drawings
kind
debate
that
is going on
tfiaè
is
the
of
So
Gurdjieff.
that of
partic-ularly
in
the
United
States.
ltaly,
but
in
not onl"y
I have a nore general question. In the UK and
Robin f{aterfiefd:
t}Ie USA and other countries as well the newspapers use the Èerm
term basical-ly for arytthing they want to
cuLt as a pejorative
you
define a cult.
as a sociologist
insutt. How alo
There are no cults. There are only
Dr. MassiÍro Introvigne:
religious rpvements. One man's cult is anotier man's religion.
labe1 20 years ago. It
cult started as a respectable university
by USA sociologists
who
was defined at that tinre, Enrticular
between sects and cults. A sect is a deviant
distinguished
So Jehovahrs Witnesses
within a mainline Èradition.
suFdivision
within
are a sect because they are deviant but still
Scientologists
are a cult because they are a deviant
Christianity.
nainstream.
sub-division which is outside of a prevailing
But then culE became such a derogatory 1abel that it is surely no
longer used by 99t of University scholars. It is just a sort of
unpopular grouPs. We
tool used to stigmatize or disgualify
nornraÌ1y urge to abandon cult and even sect which is the
and Spanì.sh and to
equivalent in languages like French or ltalian
know
that
Nevt
Religious
Movement.
We
Movenent is
Religious
use New
prefer
this
to
cult.
Then
the
satisfactory
but
we
not entirely
question is \,rhat is a New Religious Movernent? And agaj.n the antidefinition.
There is a
cult movement use classical criminological
says
that
parliamentary
rePort
which
a
cult'
what
they cal-1
French
Not all
sect in French. is a group that has unethical activitj.es.
these things are forbidden by 1aw, so this is a classical ncralIf your ex6nrience is too intense, you take the sacred
definition.
beyond what secularj.zed society is prepared to
loo seriously,
accept, you are in a cu1t. And religious sciences, social
criteria.
saying if you are far
sciences normally use qualitative
you
you
believe
are in a New Religious
fron Èhe mainline in what
Movefrcnt. Some scholars, including the undersigned even Propose
farnilies of New Religious Moveroents because you could be
different
ro/.
a bit
far avray from the mainline
ffi:S.r::i"::.fàT;.
if
you
pentecostal
are a
in
parle! tn" *ainrine
ir youu."-i; $"
U:=irE$-:"iu:.:i:i"*"*:ii:i":ff
:':ff
Hr.ilii:itt'"'
between creeds and deed:
j"*..
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