the
boisi center
interviews
no. 80: March 26, 2013
ernesto cortes is the co-director of the Industrial Areas Foundation and the Director of
the West/Southwest IAF. He spoke with Boisi Center associate director Erik Owens before delivering
the 12th Annual Prophetic Voices Lecture on prophetic action and imagination at the Boisi Center.
owens: Much of the work you do
as a community organizer is based in
religious communities. Can you explain
why that is? What do religious people or
communities offer in the broader quest
for justice?
cortes: I want to make a caveat first.
These broad-based organizations that we
build are institutions, and networks of
institutions. They are political organizations in a larger context. They are
not about partisan politics, but they are
political. They are political in an Aristotelian/Thomistic tradition of concern
about the common good, concern about
the formation of children, concern about
what happens to communities, and
concern for developing the capacity of
citizens. They are concerned about the
capacity of ordinary people to be citizens,
and to be able to articulate, deliberate,
and negotiate for the common good, but
also in ways which deal with their own
interests. And so, because they are about
the political, and seek to develop people’s
capacity to act on their own behalf, they
have to understand and exercise power.
Having said that, we have found that
the formation and transformation of
people occurs much more effectively
if the work that we do is connected to
institutions; ones that teach people the
importance of tradition. And I make the
distinction which both Whitehead and
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Pelikan make, which is that tradition is
the living ideas of the dead while traditionalism is the dead ideas of the living.
And so what we were trying to get people
to understand is that they have to think
institutionally, and by thinking institutionally, they have to be concerned about
people who have gone before them and
people who are to come. So it is not just
their own individual performance that
matters, it is also how they contribute to
the common good, how they contribute to
the larger political order.
Essentially, we find that faith institutions
are the most important resource that
people have for thinking institutional-
the boisi center interview: ernesto cortes
ly, and thinking about past and future
generations in the present. That means
parishes, congregations, synagogues,
mosques, etc.
owens: Why do you think that is? Are
you suggesting that the churches or synagogues or mosques or other religious
communities have a sense of tradition
that other communities might not? Is
there something inherent in the practice
of faith, or in the nature of the message,
the content, that promotes a sense of
tradition?
cortes: Well, the content is critical.
Henri de Lubac wrote a book called
Catholicism, which I liked a lot, and he
argues there is a social dimension to
the Sacraments. And so there is no full
understanding of the Eucharist unless
you also understand that it is about the
body of Christ. And the body of Christ is
the coming together of the faithful to live
out the life, death, and resurrection of
Christ Jesus. So that body, and the act of
building up that body, and of building up
that community, is central to fully understanding the Eucharist. Whitehead talks
about it in one of his essays, “The Aims
of Education.” The communion of saints
is an insistent present which recognizes
the past and the future generations. So
that notion of the body of the community, and the building up of the body, has
always been interesting. My mother used to always tell me that
the worst thing that a man could do–a
Mexicano male could do–was not recognize his own children. And so she
would never have anything to do with any
man who would not recognize his own
children. Now, for her, this meant that
a man needs to accept the fact that he is
obligated to those children, for their care
and their well-being. They have a claim
on him forever. That claim of recognition became real important to me. When
Saint Paul talks about recognition, I
think he meant what my mother meant.
Once we dealt with the sidewalk issue,
then we were concerned about drainage.
The kids had to go around a drainage
ditch in order to get to school, and it was
dangerous. The city was just delaying
this project. One of my favorite actions
was getting Mrs. Badillo in the middle
of this huge ditch with the public works
director. With the TV cameras coming
down on her, she asked, ‘when are you
going to finish this ditch so our kids can
get to school?’
This was so central to my mother’s thinking about what was important to human
relationships. She was very, very, very
forgiving, extraordinarily so, and would
always try to give people the benefit of
the doubt. But failing to recognize one’s
own children was one thing she would
not forgive. And so that notion of recognition became so important to my own
thinking, and it was very useful to me in
thinking about the work we do.
“I have come to
learn to love
the concept of
subsidiarity,
which we call
‘ the iron rule’—
never, ever do for
anybody what he
or she can do for
themself.”
owens: In The City of God, Augustine
speaks about the commonwealth in
terms of loves that we have in common.
And yet, as I understand it, community
organizing is based on common interest
rather than common loves.
cortes: The word interest comes from
the Latin word inter esse, to be among or
between, that which the self is among or
between. My interest is connected to that
which I am in relationship, my children
and my family. There is a woman named
Carmen Badillo, who got involved with
community organizing because she was
concerned about her children. They were
going to an elementary school and she
was concerned about their safety. Since
they were walking to school, sidewalks
were very, very important to her. And so
we began to organize with her PTA and
her parish, St. Martin de Porres, around
the issue of sidewalks. And she was able
to attract the leadership of the PTA as
well as some of the leadership of the parish to unite around that common issue.
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So when we get this flooding project
done, Mrs. Badillo begins to think about
issues in other communities, and she
realizes that she has friends and relatives in other parts of the city who were
also concerned about some of the same
issues. She began to think about larger
questions of school finance, and then
development issues. And so her moral sphere broadened, and her interest
broadened. It was no longer just her own
children that she cared about; she cared
about other people’s children.
There is this capacity for an enlarged
notion of interest which, as de Tocqueville talks about in Democracy in America,
the boisi center interview: ernesto cortes
overcomes what he calls the Augustinian
soul. This is an inclination to become
self-absorbed, or to make larger claims
on life than are appropriate. But the
Augustinian soul is mitigated by religion
and by the intermediate institutions of
family, neighborhood, and congregation.
People become full citizens by working
through these intermediate institutions
where they engage townships, school
boards, and city councils in face-to-face
arguing and deliberation, negotiation,
etc. That is how the Augustinian soul is
fully attenuated and limited, and there is
a potential for human flourishing.
owens: Could you speak to any specific
religious principles or practices that
ground your own work?
cortes: Well, I have come to learn to
love the concept of subsidiarity, which
we call the “the iron rule”—never, ever
do for anybody what he or she can do for
themself. And the iron rule is not a rationale for social Darwinism. It suggests
and indicates an obligation on the part
of leaders and institutions to mentor,
to guide, to teach, to develop people’s
imagination and curiosity, develop their
agency, so they become more capable of
flourishing.
Now, this requires agitation and imagination. It requires engagement. And
to me, that is best exemplified in the
prophetic tradition, and specifically the
call of Moses. Moses was thrown out
of Egypt because he was intemperate
and violent, and the people rejected his
leadership. However, he sees something
extraordinary in the ordinary work of his
life as a shepherd. In that extraordinary
experience (the burning bush), he is taken outside of himself and is called. That
call recalls his memory of the anguish
and the brokenness of the people that he
identified with, the Hebrews, those who
were without status, without anyone.
And their inarticulate cry moves Yahweh,
and Yahweh says, I hear the voice of my
people crying out. But they do not cry to
Yahweh. They are not crying to anybody
in particular. They are just crying out
of the burden of their own situation.
And that agitates Moses and after much
hesitancy he responds, and he responds
in the way that Abraham Joshua Heschel
calls the prophetic response, and Moses
is convulsed. And Heschel talks about
the prophet going through these convulsions, which is the same description
of what happens to Jesus of Nazareth in
Luke’s gospel, when he sees the widow of
Nain.
So that notion of the identifying with
people’s pain and suffering, to me, is at
the root of anger, because if you look at
the meaning of the word anger, it means
loss or grief, a Norse word, ang. And so
that experience of loss and grief, and
ability to identify with other people’s
grief, and other people’s loss, and other
people’s pain, so much so that you are
viscerally affected by it, is at the center of
the prophetic tradition. And that, to me,
resonates.
owens: At the same time, subsidiarity
is embraced by many for different projects these days, as you well know. I wonder if you might speak to the rhetorical
status of subsidiarity today, as used by,
say, Paul Ryan. You have just described
it as being rooted in empathy, self-empowerment, and community interest, but
obviously there are countervailing forces.
cortes: I think Ryan totally misunderstands the concept, because the notion of
subsidiarity is that decisions should be
made by the most appropriate body. It is
not an individualistic concept. Subsidiarity also requires solidarity; you cannot
separate them. You cannot separate
subsidiarity and comunio, and the understanding of comunio as a self emerges
in a relationship, the self develops in relationship. And the relationship that the
self emerges in is the face of the other.
There is a theologian named David Ford
who has a book called Self and Salvation,
where he argues that the Eucharistic
notion is enhanced by Levinas’ notion
of the other, and you see the face of the
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other in the face of the crucified Christ.
And knowing that, engaging that face of
the other, is requisite for understanding
– because Eucharist does not mean just
the face of the other who is happy and
prosperous. It also means the face of the
other who is at the margin of life, and
the face of the other who is outcast and
rejected and a stranger. And so therefore,
if you are going to engage the face of the
other, you have to know what ails them,
what infects them, what they are awed by,
what their fears are. And that means you
have to be attentive and listen to them.
And so this cannot be an intellectual
exercise. There has to be active engagement, and listening, and conversation.
So out of these conversations, out of this
engagement, a deeper understanding
of our interest begins to emerge. And
as we begin to develop the capacity and
agency to act on these interests, then we
can exercise fully this understanding of
subsidiarity.
owens: You said that subsidiarity is
about decisions being made at the lowest
appropriate level, closest to the ground.
cortes: Exactly, and by those people
who are most affected by those decisions.
And I would ask you to synthesize that
with a little book that Stuart Hampshire
wrote, called Justice is Conflict. And he
said that justice is not acquired unless
the boisi center interview: ernesto cortes
those people who are affected by the
decisions are able to exercise voice and be
heard in making the decisions that affect
them.
And the word is appropriate, because it
may not be appropriate for the decisions
to be made, for example, at the local level.
It might be more appropriate for the decisions to be made at the state level, or the
federal level, or international level. And
that word appropriateness is always going
to be attached to subsidiarity.
owens: Right. It does not deny that
there may be a higher level of organization or broader group of people that
should be involved. That is, I think, a
differential that we see in the political
debate between making a decision at a
certain level versus making that the only
source for funding or action.
cortes: That is correct. In fact, I would
hold that we recognize that, for example,
local communities do not always have
the resources to do some of the things
that they need to do in order for human
flourishing to take place. Therefore,
it requires the national government to
respond. That does not mean, however,
that local communities cannot figure out,
should not figure out, or should not have
the capacity to figure out, appropriate
responses as long as it is not a mask for
the hypocrisy of denying services and
capability to people.
owens: One last question. We invited
you to deliver this year’s Prophetic Voices
lecture because we see in your work both
prophetic witness and prophetic action.
But I wonder how the notion of being a
prophet sits with you personally? And
what is the role of the prophet in contemporary American society?
cortes: I have always admired the
prophets; I admire prophetic imagination
and the prophetic tradition. I hope that I
can, at the end of my work, say that I have
been a good teacher and mentor. If that
is true, I would be more than satisfied.
That will be measured by the number of
good and effective professional organiz-
ers that emerge. That said, however,
there is an enormous amount of engagement with the prophetic tradition that I
have yet to do. I return to the prophets
at different times and different places, in
different ways, and I am always astounded by the extent to which I miss prophetic voices, both in the Scripture and in the
tradition, but also in our own communities. Until I am no longer astounded by
my own miscues and my own blindness,
I cannot claim that mantle yet.
owens: It is a bold thing to call
someone a prophet, but it is also a heavy
mantle to wear.
understand politics by asking the question: what is the relevant time period?
For a politician, it is the next election.
For a bureaucrat, it is the budget cycle.
For an executive, it is a quarter. But for
a grandparent, it is a generation. And
now that I have two grandchildren, and
am thinking about what the world will be
like for them, and how they will flourish,
and how they will develop, and how they
will be formed, it makes this work much
more interesting and more relevant, and
more hopeful.
[end]
cortes: I am not quite ready to accept
it just yet. One thing that has been most
comforting to me is that I have learned to
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the boisi center interview: ernesto cortes
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